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Old July 5, 2009, 06:38   #11
bigmcstrongmuscle
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Yeah, I find I spend most of my mana on detection, too - I generally hit my detect macro every time I clear out a room. Lightning bolt comes in handy now and again, but I never really seem to have the mana to throw many of them. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes, though.

It does sound like you guys dive a lot faster than me. I tend to play really systematically and try and clear most of the map on interesting levels. Not for scumming as much as for OCD. I'm beginning to think that's a fault in Angband. It's definitely part of what got that ranger killed yesterday - I tried to get into a spiffy room on a superb level, and ran into a death knight that summoned about three dozen minions. They burned my teleport staff, then ate my soul when I ran out of mp.
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Old July 5, 2009, 07:00   #12
aeneas
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Really. Especially if you have one or two rods of light beam which aren't enough by themselves.
OK, but I think you're not addressing the question here. Why spend all that time killing some orcs? You could go down 1000' in the same amount of time. Unless you mean that you are killing some orcs at 4950' because you are still so weak that you can only kill orcs, in which case... mad props. But let's note that your insanity, impressive as it is, is not universally applicable.

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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
You do not need as much mana for detections in 3.1 because the areas are so much larger. Larger detection areas also means more time for detection rods to recharge, so they are doubly more useful, and that also means more mana for elec beams.
I always played with detection areas bigger than a panel (but much smaller than an entire level).) Depended a bit on my monitor, actually. If there's one thing I think is really a great change in the newer versions it is that the detection radius is fixed. It turns out to be bigger than what I used to use, so...

Anyway, I'm still just looking for the stairs, and just doing that takes all the mana I have for a long time.

Quote:
Diving hard without selling, sometimes I run short on cash, so it is worth going a little out of my way if I can kill a pack easily without using consumables. I can't guess whether I would use it much less playing with selling, but I'm sure I'd still look for the opportunities.
Hmm- I have two characters that are close to winning in your patch. I mean- they might die, but they might win. Anyway, I think I've played your patch as much as anyone has (other than you, of course), and.. yeah, at the beginning you do go out of your way io kill some orcs. They drop a lot of cash.

But later you ignore money. I think your patch is basically correct. Buying and selling is boring.
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Old July 5, 2009, 07:12   #13
PowerDiver
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Originally Posted by aeneas View Post
OK, but I think you're not addressing the question here. Why spend all that time killing some orcs?.
The point is that with the beams, you step in, wake them, take 10 or 20 steps and kill them. Maybe 300 to 400 game turns in all. If you find them in a corridor behind rubble, it takes more time to pick up the drops than to kill them. It seems right to me, but maybe I just get too much pleasure out of beam kills. I'm thinking about the point in the game before you can afford a staff of teleportation, and collecting 4K money is the main goal.

Since he had 50K money, we cannot help be talking at cross purposes, but since his complaint was that he couldn't kill enough monsters I think my point is relevant.
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Old July 5, 2009, 07:28   #14
aeneas
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The point is that with the beams, you step in, wake them, take 10 or 20 steps and kill them. Maybe 300 to 400 game turns in all.
OK, first off I can't believe you did much of this in your faster wins. I mean- I've been working on getting to 1500' in 50k turns, and.. it's all about finding stairs. Is getting a drop from an orc at 1200 feet worth a few turns?

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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
If you find them in a corridor behind rubble, it takes more time to pick up the drops than to kill them.
Hmm- It also would take less time to just go down a level. I mean- I've been trying to match your 400k wins for a while. In 3.0.whatever. I have failed, so far. I've always thought that it was because I stopped to do something stupid like LB a corridor and then go pick up the useless stuff left behind.
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Old July 5, 2009, 07:51   #15
Pete Mack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas View Post
OK, first off I can't believe you did much of this in your faster wins. I mean- I've been working on getting to 1500' in 50k turns, and.. it's all about finding stairs. Is getting a drop from an orc at 1200 feet worth a few turns?
If it's going to help you buy your first staff of teleportation, or a decent stack of ?Tele Level (or possibly even ?to_dam) it is.
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Old July 6, 2009, 18:53   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas View Post
OK, first off I can't believe you did much of this in your faster wins. I mean- I've been working on getting to 1500' in 50k turns, and.. it's all about finding stairs. Is getting a drop from an orc at 1200 feet worth a few turns?
You don't do anything much in a 400K win, but you need to look for opportunities. I think you are trying to go too fast. My "bold rogue" posted to rgra took 85K turns to get to 1600' in a 400K game. For a while I was going too fast and not killing enough. I had to adjust my playstyle to look for more chances for opportunistic kills.

But let's not completely hijack the thread. The OP said he had trouble killing things. He might well be unable to kill a large pack of algroths in a room, yet find it easy to lure them into a long corridor and kill or at least soften them sufficiently with a series of elec beams doing 7d6 damage [if I read the spoilers correctly] to the entire pack each round. If algroths are easy, replace with water trolls in the argument. The other advantage is that at most one foe can melee or shoot at you while you hurt the whole pack, which means less need for recuperation.

Also, what else is the mana for? By his depth, he should have rods for traps, stairs, and treasure in sufficient quantity that one of each is recharged by the time he leaves a dTrap area. If you are not carrying those rods perhaps you should, to keep the ability to cast more elec beams.

disclaimer: I've been working primarily on identify-via-wield for many months, recently ironman priests, and I may be too senile to really remember diving with rangers.
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Old July 16, 2009, 07:46   #17
bigmcstrongmuscle
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I tried putting a few points in Intelligence this time around, so I'd have enough mana to lightning bolt more regularly. So far it's going well - at Level 14, I've got almost double the mana my last @ had around now, and I don't seem to have lost any attacks with that extra point of strength and dex. I've maxed out my bow again, and so far, things are looking up.

Especially after Wormtongue dropped this on level 11:

Code:
g) a Robe of Permanence [2,+16]
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, shards.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Sustains strength, intelligence, wisdom, dexterity, constitution, 
     charisma.
     Stops experience drain.
This may be the best item I have *ever* seen this early. He may have been a sniveling wretch with no morals and disgusting habits, but this is enough to make me want to hug him.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and a quick question: What's with the hounds in this version? They got *viciously* smart all of a sudden - they've actually started clustering to the sides of doors to breath-weapon ambush me as I come through.
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Old July 16, 2009, 07:55   #18
Sirridan
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Yeah AI got a pretty big boost, hounds and canines "Z and C" avoid getting trapped in hallways now, they will chase you into them though if you are around half hp or less, for some I actually let myself get that low then hide at the entrance and one shot them as they come around... but I try not to anymore 'cause that may end up getting me killed someday, heh.

Also, I want that robe!! (big grats)
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Old July 16, 2009, 16:06   #19
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Originally Posted by bigmcstrongmuscle View Post
EDIT: Oh yeah, and a quick question: What's with the hounds in this version? They got *viciously* smart all of a sudden - they've actually started clustering to the sides of doors to breath-weapon ambush me as I come through.
The smart_packs (birth) option is now set to true by default. IMO it makes hounds much more interesting: hounds are harder to fight, but easier to evade. But if you really hate it, you can turn the option off for your next game.
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Old July 18, 2009, 13:16   #20
bigmcstrongmuscle
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Ahh, I guess that'd do it. I was never sure exactly what that option did. I don't know that I hate it, but it does make things a little trickier - you have to fool things into coming out so you can kill them. The tack I've been taking has been to wait around 2-3 steps into the corridor, and use my bow to kill them as they enter my LoS. Usually they only seem to step into range 1 or 2 at a time.
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