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Old August 8, 2013, 00:03   #31
Oramin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
"Name-calling" refers to you calling the other guy a douche, in the OP.

As for the other bit, I'm sure you're capable of having a discussion about what is or isn't cheating without casting aspersions on your interlocutor's character.

Sorry for going off topic. I already said what I thought about the option, so I'm done now.

Fair enough. I actually called him a bit of a douche and then explained what he did that I thought qualified. I'll try to watch that particular language in the future.

A discussion about cheating *is* a discussion about character; frankly I thought that was the politest way of making the point without directly casting aspersions on any participant's character.
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Old August 8, 2013, 00:21   #32
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mca, that casts aspersions.
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Old August 8, 2013, 00:25   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
Fair enough. I actually called him a bit of a douche and then explained what he did that I thought qualified. I'll try to watch that particular language in the future.

A discussion about cheating *is* a discussion about character; frankly I thought that was the politest way of making the point without directly casting aspersions on any participant's character.
I believe Djabanete was referring to the quote you posted, not the original post where literally used the word 'douche', which was quite a direct attack on another poster's character IMO.

The thing is that people disagree about whether it constitutes cheating. Trying to get one up in the argument by invoking your higher moral status isn't going to make people agree with you, it'll just get people's backs up.
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Old August 8, 2013, 00:51   #34
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Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
I believe Djabanete was referring to the quote you posted, not the original post where literally used the word 'douche', which was quite a direct attack on another poster's character IMO.
True, but then that was after I politely permitted him to have the last word by stating that I wouldn't continue in that thread and he abused that courtesy by engaging in an attack on my character.

Quote:
The thing is that people disagree about whether it constitutes cheating. Trying to get one up in the argument by invoking your higher moral status isn't going to make people agree with you, it'll just get people's backs up.
Ok, then how do you suggest it be done? If the point is that certain behavior is considered cheating, do you think it would be better to argue that I'm against cheating because I do the behavior considered cheating all the time? In that case I could be accused of hypocrisy - I'd prefer to be accused of being "smug".


Seriously, how often do people willingly admit that their behavior is cheating? They typically have some sort of rationalization why it isn't (see, Lance Armstrong).

I've explained why I think certain behavior is cheating and why I think that a free monster memory should continue to be a cheating option. If people think that fun and convenience and playing solo are adequate justification for using it, then why are they so offended about it being a "cheat" option?
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Old August 8, 2013, 01:16   #35
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Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
Ok, then how do you suggest it be done? If the point is that certain behavior is considered cheating, do you think it would be better to argue that I'm against cheating because I do the behavior considered cheating all the time? In that case I could be accused of hypocrisy - I'd prefer to be accused of being "smug".
All I'm saying is that insinuating someone's character is flawed because their opinion on or actions in a frankly ancient game that they play in their free time for fun, in a way that affects no-one else's enjoyment of the game, is going a little bit far.

Playing the game is fundamentally about having fun. If people are having fun, I don't really mind how they do it. I used to savefile-scum when I started playing ZAngband, and I've tried playing V a few times with cheat_death on, but it's not as satisfying. If other people find those options satisfying, good for them. Obviously it's not the same kind of achievement - I would be lying if I claimed a clean win after savefile scumming - and I think if you use those options you miss out on a big part of the point of the game. But honestly, how other people play the game does not really bother me and I don't think it reflects their character in any way.

TLDR; It's fine (obviously!) that you have an opinion and you're discussing it, I wouldn't want you to stop. But making out that you are a better person than someone else ain't gonna get you anywhere.

Quote:
Seriously, how often do people willingly admit that their behavior is cheating? They typically have some sort of rationalization why it isn't (see, Lance Armstrong).

If people think that fun and convenience and playing solo are adequate justification for using it, then why are they so offended about it being a "cheat" option?
I'm not sure I've seen anyone be offended at it being a 'cheat' option; some people just think it shouldn't be. From the tone of people's arguments, I don't think anyone is trying to rationalise some kind of behaviour they feel is wrong. I suspect that like with many other gameplay issues, different people feel different things about how the game should be played, and find different things fun. I have no problem with the game catering to these different feelings.
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Old August 8, 2013, 01:41   #36
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Takkaria:

All fair points. I freely admit that when I first played Angband about 20 or so years ago, I save-scummed in the OS (I don't recall if it was an in-game cheat option then). I also freely admit that I was cheating by doing so.

If people are playing just for fun then it shouldn't matter to them that the game labels certain options cheating. As I observed earlier, players *already* have the option to play the game with the free complete monster memory; the only penalty is that a cheater flag gets enabled.

Therefore, the *only* reason we're having the discussion about making it a non-cheat option is for those players to avoid getting hit with the cheater flag.

The *WINNER* status for characters, IMO, should be for those players who have accepted the equivalent of Championship Mode from CM2100 as I discussed in an earlier post.

Take on the challenge, get the reward.
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Old August 8, 2013, 13:35   #37
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Maybe we just need a "SPOILED" flag, since players who are merely spoiled don't want to be conflated with real "cheaters", save scummers and the like.

If it weren't for the ladder none of this would matter, but there is a ladder and for the ladder to mean anything, then equal footing MUST be maintained. By flat out eliminating the cheater flag for spoilers, you're throwing all previous ladder entries under the bus.

@ Oramin: .
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Old August 8, 2013, 14:31   #38
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Maybe we just need a "SPOILED" flag, since players who are merely spoiled don't want to be conflated with real "cheaters", save scummers and the like.

If it weren't for the ladder none of this would matter, but there is a ladder and for the ladder to mean anything, then equal footing MUST be maintained. By flat out eliminating the cheater flag for spoilers, you're throwing all previous ladder entries under the bus.
Oooh, flags! Can I suggest some too?
  • PRESERVED - played with preserve on (don't want to confuse those with the hardcore heroes who risked losing artifacts by not clearing levels)
  • UNIRONIC - non-ironman players
  • CONSUMER - those who gave in and allowed themselves to play with shops
  • STACKED - allowed gear to pile up willy-nilly around them instead of being destroyed when there was nowhere for it to go like the RNG intended
  • CONNECTED - losers who didn't blindfold themselves and spin around three times on reaching the bottom of the stairs

By thus classifying we maintain ladder purity!
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Old August 8, 2013, 14:34   #39
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Oooh, flags! Can I suggest some too?
  • PRESERVED - played with preserve on (don't want to confuse those with the hardcore heroes who risked losing artifacts by not clearing levels)
  • UNIRONIC - non-ironman players
  • CONSUMER - those who gave in and allowed themselves to play with shops
  • STACKED - allowed gear to pile up willy-nilly around them instead of being destroyed when there was nowhere for it to go like the RNG intended
  • CONNECTED - losers who didn't blindfold themselves and spin around three times on reaching the bottom of the stairs

By thus classifying we maintain ladder purity!
Ideally, there would be separate ladders for *each* of these tags. That way, we don't mix things up. Pav?
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Old August 8, 2013, 14:44   #40
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
Ideally, there would be separate ladders for *each* of these tags. That way, we don't mix things up. Pav?
Actually, Pav, we need a ladder for each COMBINATION of these flags.
And how about:

SLACKER - for those players who cheat by turning off the 'pick up items matching inventory' option, instead of repeatedly hitting <g> every time. An immoral practice, if ever I saw one.
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