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Old August 8, 2013, 15:01   #41
Oramin
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The last few posters:

The ladder isn't actually the point of my argument, but thanks for the laugh.
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Old August 8, 2013, 16:13   #42
Raajaton
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Personally I wouldn't view having a full monster memory option as cheating. Angband is all about making tactical decisions to survive while the game is actively trying to kill you. Sure, having all of the information available to you may help nudge you in the right direction, however you still need to make good decisions in order to survive. I've died on plenty of occasions knowing full well what the enemy can do.

Perhaps this isn't the greatest example, but it came to mind while I was reading the discussion. I played a game some of you may have heard of called I Wanna Be The Guy. For those that don't, it is an incredibly difficult and sadistic 2d platformer. It requires incredible amounts of speed and precision in order to beat even the most basic obstacles. While attempting to beat the game, I on many occasions would look at YouTube videos of people playing that particular area to see how in the hell they beat it. Now, for many games I would consider looking at a walkthrough to be pure cheating. However, for that game, seeing somebody else beat it didn't make it any easier for me. It still required me to play properly in order to do it myself.

I also think that the argument about people having many more games to occupy their time is a valid one. Those of us that play roguelikes are absolutely gluttons for punishment, however I think for many people there is a frustrating line where 20 hours in to a game you die to the unknown and know you have to start over from the beginning. Many people will throw their hands up, say fuck this, and play something else. But, with the option of having full monster memory on, even if they died in the exact same manner, they'll know that it's because they made a mistake and MIGHT be interested in playing again to try to overcome their mistake and be a better player rather than be annoyed that all their time and effort got taken from them for god knows what reason.

Perhaps you can say that roguelikes aren't the type of game for those people, and the community should remain the small, hardcore community that it already is. I happen to disagree. There are a lot of games coming out lately that at least have roguelike elements to them, and I see the genre making somewhat of a resurgence. In my opinion, Angband is the best and my personal favorite game of the entire genre. I believe adding an option (particularly one that does not in any way effect your own gameplay, as you don't have to enable it) that might make the game a bit more accessible to more players (and possibly future developers) is a very good thing. Angband has a lot to offer to this community, why should we keep it purely to ourselves?
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Old August 8, 2013, 17:06   #43
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I have no real opinion one way or the other on this matter, but I think the issue boils very simply down to two points:

If moster discovery is deemed an important part of game play, then monster memory should be tied to the character (i.e. it starts at 0 for each @).

If monster discovery is not deemed an important part of game play, then monster memory should be available at game start for all players.

Since I am not a developer of the game (and only recently found the game), I have no way of knowing what the original/current design intent was.

Giving monster memory to the player as a reward for longevity does not keep everyone on equal footing with respect to the ladder or comps and seems like a strange mechanic (i.e. how does my new character know what my old character knew?)
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Old August 8, 2013, 17:37   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzilla77 View Post
how does my new character know what my old character knew?)
Before you went out into the big bad dungeon on your own, your Daddy sat you down on his knee and told you everything he knew about the baddies that lurk within, in the hope that you might come back to see him with all of your limbs attached. Someof the knowledge was passed down to him from his father, and his father's father and so on.

It should only work with dynasties (e.g. Funt I, Funt II, Funt III etc).
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Old August 8, 2013, 17:43   #45
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As I indicated earlier in the thread, I think the fact that Probing is a spell available in the game indicates that the game design is to provide information about monsters in-game only after learning about the monsters by playing the game.

I think that this is an important part of the game and should remain as it is.

Of course, I also think that people should learn how to do math in school before being allowed the convenience of calculators and I also think that people should learn how to spell and not rely on their (there/they're) spell checkers. Perhaps I'm just turning into a grumpy old man (and I'm only in my early 40s).
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Old August 8, 2013, 18:10   #46
debo
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This definitely sounds like a grumpy old man thread, imo. We have a bunch of players saying "the monster memory is not something I like", and others trying to argue from first principles that they're "wrong". I don't particularly care what anyone think of my playstyle, so if asked my opinion I would tell the truth. However, if the game designers decided that was the "wrong" way to play -- well, it's their baby, and I'm fine with that.

I think this comes down to a "do the designers make the game they want to play, or the one the players want to play" call. I think history has shown that either approach can be right. The interesting part of this is that the intersection of those groups in this case seems to be somewhat large

There is a lot of (solicited) noise on some of the Sil topics, where people are basically saying "I don't like it this way and here is why", and in some cases the designers are saying "this was our reasoning and we believe we're correct". In some cases, they're making the suggested changes. I'm totally fine with that, and I will continue to play the game because the majority of the decisions they're making are ones that I like, and none of them are dealbreakers for me.

The monster memory thing in V isn't a dealbreaker for me either. I just personally don't like the decision.

One last thing -- Oramin mentioned before that length is inherent to the design of V, and that it's supposed to be a marathon. That's fine, but it's not why I liked V. For me, V's homogeneity of experience (dive, kill stuff, back to town, repeat) meant that it was easy for me to pick up, play a few levels, come back a day later, and keep doing the same thing. There aren't any huge skill trees for me to study or forks through the game for me to decide on, I just have to get to D100 and kill the big guy. That was why I liked it, in that my play could be sort of memoryless. The only thing impeding that playstyle was -- you guessed it -- not knowing anything about which monsters were dangerous, and so I used the spoilers.

(At the time I played, it was also very easy (3.2 -3.3). I was looking for a game with some risk, but not for one that was hard as nails. That incarnation of V definitely fit the bill, and I had a lot of fun with it.)

Anyhow, do what you will I just don't really understand the point of soliciting opinions from players on a topic if counterarguments are going to be made from the angle of "right" or "wrong" rather than "fun" or "annoying".
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Old August 8, 2013, 18:35   #47
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Debo:

The key point that I've been trying to make is that the free complete monster memory *is* an option which anybody can already activate if they find it to be more "fun" or "convenient".

The real argument is based on whether or not it *should* continue to be considered to be a "cheat" option and, for the aforementioned reasons, I believe it should remain a "cheat" option.


Edit:

Maybe a real life analogy would make more sense.

Consider speeding and murder. There are laws against both. Let's equate save-scumming with murder and activating the complete free monster memory with speeding.

Obviously they aren't the same level of infraction but if you violate either set of laws then you are a lawbreaker.

Whenever I speed, I have no problem admitting that by doing so, I'm a lawbreaker.

Sure, it is more fun and convenient to speed and I can almost always get away with it, but I'm still a lawbreaker.

I could argue that the law should be changed but, personally, I don't think that arguing fun, convenience, or ease of ignoring the law are particularly good arguments.

If I want to change it, I need to show that the underlying reason for the law is flawed.

Yes, I realize that there's a difference between a game and real life but this is just an analogy to explain a point.

Getting a free complete monster memory was originally considered to be cheating by the folks who put the option into the game. I believe I have already explained why the game design indicates that this *should* be cheating.

So, fine, since the cheater flag doesn't stop you from using it (other than not wanting to get flagged) and there's no way to catch you using spoilers, why do the players who want a free complete monster memory feel the need to have their gameplay choices validated by not having the cheater label contrary to the design of the game?

Last edited by Oramin; August 8, 2013 at 19:06.
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Old August 8, 2013, 19:29   #48
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If you label something a cheat option, lots of players won't think about it and will assume it's a generally less enjoyable way of engaging with the game. I know if I came across a game I'd tend to take it at its own terms. I might play around with 'options', but I'd be quite likely to just use defaults, and unlikely to use options labelled as 'cheat' until I was familiar enough with the game to judge for myself.

You have some duty as a game designer to label the enjoyable ways to play. I think this is debo's point. Leaving it as a cheat option should be a statement that this is something which makes the game easier but a large majority of people will find less satisfying (such as infinite lives). If it's a majority but not a large one, it could be sensible to have it as an option, but not a default one. If a majority of players are likely to find it more satisfying, there's a good case for it being the default option.
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Old August 8, 2013, 19:58   #49
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
Maybe a real life analogy would make more sense.

Consider speeding and murder. There are laws against both. Let's equate save-scumming with murder and activating the complete free monster memory with speeding.
I'll freely admit I started only skimming posts pretty quickly in this thread.

But I can't imagine that you're making any friends when your argument starts from the supposition that the activity someone is performing is a crime.

1) This is a singleplayer game.
2) How you play the game does not affect my enjoyment of the game.
3) If the reverse is not true, then it is your problem, not mine.

The only exception to this is the ladder, since it exists in part so people can compare each others' performance. But you said earlier that the ladder wasn't why you were having this argument. Is it just because you think everyone would have more fun if they played without full monster memory? Clearly that's not the case; plenty of people are posting in this thread saying "Yeah, I tried that and I have more fun doing things my way". So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

I can't think of anything that can't be answered by pointing to item 3 in the list above.
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Old August 8, 2013, 20:04   #50
dzilla77
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Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
As I indicated earlier in the thread, I think the fact that Probing is a spell available in the game indicates that the game design is to provide information about monsters in-game only after learning about the monsters by playing the game.

I think that this is an important part of the game and should remain as it is.
Based on that logic - monster memory should be wiped at the start of every character (not how it is now) and using saved or accumulated monster memory should be a cheat.

Like I said, I don't care either way, but the "I get the convenience cuz I played 60, 600 or 6000 hours in the game, but you don't, noob" doesn't feel like the right mechanic.
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