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Old August 10, 2013, 13:38   #91
takkaria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
AFAIK whole ID sub-game is going thru overhaul so that you get rune-based ID: once you learn what firebrand is you recognize it automatically on new items.

IMO that should be huge improvement as long as you get that even without picking things up, just seeing them should be enough.
Yeah, we've not done that in V yet - it is in v4 though. I wonder if it's actually overly complex - I'd probably prefer the ego item flavour approach, so when you learn one flavour of ego item, you can ID them all on sight. Maybe combined with artifact knowledge saved over characters. What do you think?
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Old August 10, 2013, 13:47   #92
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Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
I think that the changing the official rules of the game in this way violates the integrity of the earlier design choices.
In which case, I and others have broken the design integrity of the game many times and I expect future developers to do so in future. That's part of what it is to have a living game.

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The earlier programmers of the game came up with a balance they preferred and decided that instant monster omniscience violated that balance. I personally think that since this was an earlier choice, some respect should be given to that determination by the current devs.
Monster memory goes right back to Moria; but the cheat option goes back to Ben, circa 2.7. I'm not sure that the team of people who made the first version of Angband really thought about it much - it certainly wasn't modified very much and remains in much the same form today. So I don't think you can rely on the fact there was an intentional decision about monster memory, because there probably wasn't.
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Old August 10, 2013, 14:05   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
Yeah, we've not done that in V yet - it is in v4 though. I wonder if it's actually overly complex - I'd probably prefer the ego item flavour approach, so when you learn one flavour of ego item, you can ID them all on sight. Maybe combined with artifact knowledge saved over characters. What do you think?
I like! But what about weapons that only have plusses/minuses?

I'd prefer plusses and minuses on weapons and armour to be always visible. Unidentified ego weapons could be marked with (ego).

After these changes, Identify could be made much rarer and more expensive, to encourage identifying potions and scrolls by use. IMO that's the fun part of the identify system.

EDIT: But actually v4's rune-based system solves the identifying chore with non-ego weapons more elegantly. Simple plusses/minuses are based on runes, too, right? Does the game tell you if a weapon has no runes at all, or do you need to identify it to be sure?

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Old August 10, 2013, 14:55   #94
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Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
If I'm just playing on my own system, it makes no difference that I'm labeled as "cheating", but it's inconvenient for participating in the ladder, competitions, etc. If you want fewer participants in those things then the "cheat" setting serves that purpose.
It's not any less convenient. It's exactly the same.

Competitions and ladder entries is the ONLY reason why this should be an issue (that I can think of). I could care less if you achieve ***WINNER*** status with full info turned on in your own little world. I DO care if you nose me out in a competition, or romp on my ladder entries (to a much lesser extent, but other more serious players may care more) while playing with thumbed down difficulty, and full monster info is a difficulty thing. I go so far as to say if you're using spoilers in lieu of "in game cheats", you should state so in your comments.

Angband isn't a variant. I'd err on the side of original intent and historical precedent. It's not the maintainer's, to do with as they choose. They should strive for minimal change to core gameplay and start a variant if they get the urge to get creative.

Splitting monster memory from the save file is exactly the type of thing the maintainer should be tackling. It's been discussed for years now. It would render this a discussion nearly irrelevant. It would also be hard to do. This is easier.
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Old August 10, 2013, 15:53   #95
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Takkaria:

It depends on how far you want to go. The ID mini-game has sped up but people still have to ID things during the course of the game. That's a design concept that you've kept in the game but if speeding things up or making things more convenient is the primary issue then why bother with IDing things at all? And if individual playing style is more important than design integrity then why is having infinite lives flagged as a "cheat" option.

Of course, as I recall, you folks recently removed the "Angels" in favor of "Maia" (I believe, I haven't updated from 3.3.2). While it is more consistent with the Tolkien theme, I think it undermines the earlier artistic choice just like I wouldn't care for removing creatures from Greek mythology or AD&D. That's part of the flavor of the game.

So if you want to change things, well, as you pointed out, this is a "living" game - but it also is "Angband" and not somebody's personal variant. Just consider how far you're changing it from previous versions.
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Old August 10, 2013, 16:37   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
Takkaria:

It depends on how far you want to go. The ID mini-game has sped up but people still have to ID things during the course of the game. That's a design concept that you've kept in the game but if speeding things up or making things more convenient is the primary issue then why bother with IDing things at all? And if individual playing style is more important than design integrity then why is having infinite lives flagged as a "cheat" option.

Of course, as I recall, you folks recently removed the "Angels" in favor of "Maia" (I believe, I haven't updated from 3.3.2). While it is more consistent with the Tolkien theme, I think it undermines the earlier artistic choice just like I wouldn't care for removing creatures from Greek mythology or AD&D. That's part of the flavor of the game.

So if you want to change things, well, as you pointed out, this is a "living" game - but it also is "Angband" and not somebody's personal variant. Just consider how far you're changing it from previous versions.
Christ, I've been doing this for six years and a half years now, through hundreds of discussions like this and with hundreds of thousands of lines of code that I and other contributors have altered. I'd have to be pretty stupid and throughly uninterested in listening to what anyone else has to say not to have considered how much the game has changed. Please credit the people who have developed the game in the past six years with a bit of intelligence. We're not a bunch of cretins who do stuff willy-nilly with nary a thought about how it affects the big picture.

Everyone wants different things. If you want an Angband true to the original artistic ideas of the original creators, go play 2.4 in a DOS terminal. If you're playing 3.3.2 you're playing a ridiclously easy version anyway. That's probably the biggest change in terms of gameplay compared to earlier versions, so I recommend you back up to 2.9.3 if you're going to complain about game difficulty.

I think people always overlook the fact that if the original maintainers were still here they would probably be making loads of changes that fit in variant territory. There was an earlier version of Angband - before 2.4 - that was entirely internal to the university where it was developed which added all kinds of terrain types, quest levels you could stumble across and probably a bunch of other stuff that never made it to the public record. It got lost though and never released.
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Old August 10, 2013, 16:42   #97
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Siding with Takkaria here. The original maintainers ceded their authority to control the direction the game goes in as soon as they stopped controlling its development. If they disagree with what has happened to the game, they are more than welcome to come here, fork the game code, and try to establish a competing "True" Angband. Same goes for anyone else who doesn't like what the latest versions are doing.

In the absence of anyone actually doing that, arguing about the Original Maintainers' Vision is just an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy because the Original Maintainers have no authority. It's also really insulting to the Actual Maintainers, which is the only reason I stuck my nose into this clusterfuck of a thread again.
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Old August 10, 2013, 17:13   #98
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I'm sure there are many things, even in 3.3.2, that was never intended by the original devs. A great many things have been added or changed to the game to make it significantly easier than early versions of the game, so I don't understand why this now suddenly has become such a big issue. Particularly when a) it's an option you do not have to enable in your own playthrough and b) in Oramin's case it would be included in a version of the game he's not likely to play anyway. I know I've read a few posts regarding certain issues that have since been fixed in newer versions, and you haven't updated anyway.

IMO people are free to enjoy the game however they want. The developers are free to make any decisions they want in regards to how to change the game. We're not talking about the constitution here, we're talking about a video game we all play for fun. The beauty of this particular game is that the major versions of the game are archived, so you can continue to play whichever one you decide fits your vision of Angband the best. Let everyone else decide what they like best as well.
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Old August 10, 2013, 17:58   #99
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Competitions and ladder entries is the ONLY reason why this should be an issue (that I can think of). I could care less if you achieve ***WINNER*** status with full info turned on in your own little world. I DO care if you nose me out in a competition, or romp on my ladder entries (to a much lesser extent, but other more serious players may care more) while playing with thumbed down difficulty, and full monster info is a difficulty thing. I go so far as to say if you're using spoilers in lieu of "in game cheats", you should state so in your comments.
Monster info, by itself, isn't a difficulty parameter, because the same information is available to everyone in other ways, regardless of what game settings they use.

You can look at the comments from people posting about the game way back to 1993. People say things like, "Don't look at the spoiler files unless you want to take away the surprise." It's a game designed to be fun. Some people have fun being surprised by monsters they come across and have no idea what they do. Some people want to know what the enemies will be able to do so they can fight them with more strategy. Both attitudes toward the game have existed from the very beginning. I think virtually everyone who stuck with the game for more than a few hours came to look at spoilers or get information from online discussions, at least occasionally. But it's up to each of them how they do that.

If you want to create a competition, then you can create whatever competition rules you want. If you want a special ladder for people who have never viewed any spoiler file or ever read a forum posting that would reveal anything about any monster, you could create that. I don't think you would have very many players, though. Oramin says he looks at monster spoilers when he wants, plus he probes all of the monsters so that his subsequent characters can have complete monster info, which gives him the same information that you say players shouldn't have. I think it's pretty hard to find any two people who have exactly the same views as you about this. But I have no problem if you want to give it a shot.
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Old August 10, 2013, 18:08   #100
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If arguments about the "original vision" had any weight at all, surely that would apply much more to core gameplay changes that affect everyone whether they like them or not (of which there are plenty!), rather than simple options that anyone can just turn off if they don't like them. Let's remember this whole thread is about one person who is upset at the idea that other people might have an option that the he doesn't want them to have. Or he wants them to only have it if they change one line in their source code before compiling. Or something.
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