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Old February 11, 2018, 05:53   #341
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I went to the builds page, and i see the latest osx build is Angband-osx-4.1.2-10-g54cf322.dmg, which has the "new Mage" class but not the necromancer. is that the most recent one I should try?
No, you want the one with the highest number after 4.1.2, which is Angband-osx-4.1.2-93-gbf7df0a.dmg.

This one will always be close to the top, but we have been having some issues with our autobuild (we suspect it's some webcrawler pushing the build button at random) which is resulting in extra builds appearing.
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Old February 16, 2018, 03:58   #342
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Using that recent version you pointed out and I just found a rod of Illumination. In the description it says "When activated, it lights up the surrounding area and fires a ball of with radius 2, dealing 2d8 at the centre, which your device skill increases by 52 percent."

It doesn't appear to fire a ball of " ", it just lights up the area.
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Old February 16, 2018, 04:08   #343
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Using that recent version you pointed out and I just found a rod of Illumination. In the description it says "When activated, it lights up the surrounding area and fires a ball of with radius 2, dealing 2d8 at the centre, which your device skill increases by 52 percent."

It doesn't appear to fire a ball of " ", it just lights up the area.
It fires a ball of weak light, which will do nothing unless there are light-sensitive monsters within radius 2. The " " needs fixing.
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Old February 19, 2018, 11:58   #344
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New builds up on the build page (Windows, MacOS).

The main (only?) noticeable change is that the Command spell now works almost as intended. Once a monster is commanded it can be made to move or stand still (using the direction keys), drop a random item ('d') or cast a random spell ('m', requires a monster target).

Currently if you try to move into another monster it just fails; I am planning to have the commanded monster able to melee other monsters. It's possible that spellcasting should be generalised to targeting arbitrary directions as well (although that doesn't make sense for some spells), and targeting the player.
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Old February 20, 2018, 21:17   #345
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This seems to have gone very quiet. Nick, here are some comments on the Druid and the Necromancer. I completed the game once with each. Feel free to ignore the suggestions - I don't know whether you find "it moans" (without suggestions) or "it messes with your mind" (with suggestions) more annoying. And apologies for the length...

The druid was a lot of fun. I played before the removal of +5speed to the fox, so these comments may be out of date. I spent 99% of the time in fox form, and biting Morgoth's head off as a fox is perhaps a little silly. But if you're planning to nerf the fox, please strengthen the bear correspondingly (and maybe put it at the start of book 2?), as the fox had roughly the appropriate strength for a melee character. The "+1 attack/round" is also an interesting dynamic, as it makes heavy weapons useful in the early game that you'd never use otherwise. And Glaive of Pain was great! In fact, a "+2 attack/round" (say, for the bear) could make the melee-based druid feel even more different from warrior & the usual gang. What would also have been very convenient is if one could drop and pick up items while shapeshifted.

The necromancer seems to need quite a lot more work, I'm afraid.

Darkness: I really like the idea, and the different feel it gives to the character from the rest. However, the tiny vision radius is frustrating, and as soon as I found the Phial I immediately switched to using a light source and spamming light area with the phial or a rod. Any chance of increasing the Nec's sight radius in darkness to, say, 2 base + 1 per 5 levels, i.e. 2 at the start and 12 at the end? A bonus of +4 Con in darkness, instead of +3 Stealth, would also be a much better incentive not to use a light source, especially for high level characters, since the difference between 18/160 and 18/200 Con is massive. Equivalently, it could be a -4Con penalty in light. This would also make the Nec vulnurable to creatures that have a light radius, like druids, priests, paladins, the ainur and fire-based monsters.

Disenchant: this is effectively the Nec's Orb of Draining, and I spent most of the game throwing it at everything in sight. Virtually nothing resists it, Annihilation is only 50% more powerful but costs 3 times as much and doesn't even affect everyone, Unleash Chaos has nasty side effects (waking everyone and possibly polymorphing something into a time vortex, gravity hound, shrieker mushroom patch etc). The de-magicising effect is a nice touch and a nice bonus. I found Storm of Darkness also fairly decent.

Curse: tried a few times, but didn't find it powerful enough to justify the hp cost. How much damage is it actually meant to do?

Vampire form: nice idea, but I found it impractical. There are too many creatures out there that can take off >400hp without first asking you for permission, so the 50% life cost is a possible suicide.

Undead: in the early game, undead are some of the most dangerous opponents for the Nec, which seems silly. The problem is that they are immune to Nether Bolt, some are immune to Sleep Evil, and the Banish Undead spell doesn't teleport them nearly far enough for the mana cost. I'd suggest the rather extreme solution to make Banish Undead actually banish them, "Banishment"-style. It would mean that the Nec would never have to fight non-unique undead, which would make the class much more special... and make the Nec the only one happy to see graveyards.

Bat Form: the +3 speed often gets effectively lost due to overweight caused by the loss of strength.

Noxious Fumes: found it too weak to be useful. Kobolds are immune to it, and orcs are too strong.

Shadow shift: is this in every way worse than phase door, or have I missed something?

Dispel Life: nice to get rid of hordes of nonsense in the late game, but has too high fail rate early on to be a proper battle spell. I played with max possible starting Int (18/50), but even so couldn't sensibly use it before raising Int a couple of times.

Warg form: Nec is very bad at melee, and the temporary berserk boost isn't sufficient to fix it. But then, maybe my character was just too magic oriented.

Crush: Um. No disrespect, but when running around 4000 feet down in Angband, my Nec would like to instantly get rid of ancient dragons, not metallic centipedes...

Power Sacrifice: nice spell. No complaints!

...And so this 26-year old hobbit kid, with wavy brown hair, decided to go off and become a necromancer, learning to dispel life, turn into a vampire and spread darkness. "You are a credit to your family" ?!?!
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Old February 20, 2018, 23:35   #346
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...And so this 26-year old hobbit kid, with wavy brown hair, decided to go off and become a necromancer, learning to dispel life, turn into a vampire and spread darkness. "You are a credit to your family" ?!?!
It didn't say it was a nice family...
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:22   #347
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It didn't say it was a nice family...
Tha Addams Family.
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Old February 21, 2018, 09:23   #348
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I think everything Voovus said is very sensible; playing a necromancer is very different because of not worrying about light sources and as stated I think that needs to be pushed more to differentiate. I was playing a human nec so relied on infravision a lot and tried to play without a light source. Maybe a spell to cancel the light effect would be useful so you could still carry e.g. the Arkenstone or other artifacts that have a light effect but temporari;y remove it for battles to give you a bit of edge.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:05   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
This seems to have gone very quiet. Nick, here are some comments on the Druid and the Necromancer. I completed the game once with each. Feel free to ignore the suggestions - I don't know whether you find "it moans" (without suggestions) or "it messes with your mind" (with suggestions) more annoying. And apologies for the length...
Don't apologise, this is very helpful.

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Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
The druid was a lot of fun. I played before the removal of +5speed to the fox, so these comments may be out of date. I spent 99% of the time in fox form, and biting Morgoth's head off as a fox is perhaps a little silly. But if you're planning to nerf the fox, please strengthen the bear correspondingly (and maybe put it at the start of book 2?), as the fox had roughly the appropriate strength for a melee character. The "+1 attack/round" is also an interesting dynamic, as it makes heavy weapons useful in the early game that you'd never use otherwise. And Glaive of Pain was great! In fact, a "+2 attack/round" (say, for the bear) could make the melee-based druid feel even more different from warrior & the usual gang. What would also have been very convenient is if one could drop and pick up items while shapeshifted.
Being unable to use items at all while shapeshifted was a deliberate drawback. There's certainly scope for playing with the balance of the shapes. I'm envisaging that some races will be better for melee-druids and some for caster-druids.

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The necromancer seems to need quite a lot more work, I'm afraid.
This is unsurprising - I had a clear theme, but a lot of the spells were new and my attempts at balance were largely guesswork.

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Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
Darkness: I really like the idea, and the different feel it gives to the character from the rest. However, the tiny vision radius is frustrating, and as soon as I found the Phial I immediately switched to using a light source and spamming light area with the phial or a rod. Any chance of increasing the Nec's sight radius in darkness to, say, 2 base + 1 per 5 levels, i.e. 2 at the start and 12 at the end? A bonus of +4 Con in darkness, instead of +3 Stealth, would also be a much better incentive not to use a light source, especially for high level characters, since the difference between 18/160 and 18/200 Con is massive. Equivalently, it could be a -4Con penalty in light. This would also make the Nec vulnurable to creatures that have a light radius, like druids, priests, paladins, the ainur and fire-based monsters.
I like the increasing sight radius; the light/dark difference being CON not stealth I think is genius, better both thematically and for gameplay.

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Disenchant: this is effectively the Nec's Orb of Draining, and I spent most of the game throwing it at everything in sight. Virtually nothing resists it, Annihilation is only 50% more powerful but costs 3 times as much and doesn't even affect everyone, Unleash Chaos has nasty side effects (waking everyone and possibly polymorphing something into a time vortex, gravity hound, shrieker mushroom patch etc). The de-magicising effect is a nice touch and a nice bonus. I found Storm of Darkness also fairly decent.
OK, I didn't expect Disenchant to be quite that effective, but I think I'm mostly fine with that. Annihilation should be worth it at least some of the time, and Unleash Chaos was meant to be more fun than useful If someone thinks of a better chaos spell, I'd be happy to go with that; the polymorph effect is amusing, but tends to reduce the utility of chaos as an attack element.

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Curse: tried a few times, but didn't find it powerful enough to justify the hp cost. How much damage is it actually meant to do?
It's 5dS (6dS from CL48) where S is 50 + %HP the monster has lost - so it gets more powerful as the monster gets more damaged. Should be good for finishing things off.

Note that pretty much all the necro spells have high variance; playing a necro is meant to feel risky.

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Vampire form: nice idea, but I found it impractical. There are too many creatures out there that can take off >400hp without first asking you for permission, so the 50% life cost is a possible suicide.
Maybe cut the cost but also the HP recovery?

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Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
Undead: in the early game, undead are some of the most dangerous opponents for the Nec, which seems silly. The problem is that they are immune to Nether Bolt, some are immune to Sleep Evil, and the Banish Undead spell doesn't teleport them nearly far enough for the mana cost. I'd suggest the rather extreme solution to make Banish Undead actually banish them, "Banishment"-style. It would mean that the Nec would never have to fight non-unique undead, which would make the class much more special... and make the Nec the only one happy to see graveyards.
Yeah, this is a thorny one. O necromancers have Dispel Undead, and that always felt to me like the opposite of what they should be doing. The "delete" meaning of Banish is certainly a possibility, although would just increasing the teleoport distance and/or cutting the mana cost be enough?

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Bat Form: the +3 speed often gets effectively lost due to overweight caused by the loss of strength.
Bat was kind of meant to be intro to shapeshifting for necros, plus the odd bit of situational utility; I see the point of speed vs STR making it a washout. Maybe lose the -STR and instead have a bigger minus to combat stats.

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Noxious Fumes: found it too weak to be useful. Kobolds are immune to it, and orcs are too strong.
More powerful but also more damaging to the player, then?

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Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
Shadow shift: is this in every way worse than phase door, or have I missed something?
It's meant to be an escape rather than a tactical fighting move; maybe it should be longer distance and less mana.

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Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
Dispel Life: nice to get rid of hordes of nonsense in the late game, but has too high fail rate early on to be a proper battle spell. I played with max possible starting Int (18/50), but even so couldn't sensibly use it before raising Int a couple of times.
OK, will dropping the fail rate fix it? Is the mana cost OK?

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Warg form: Nec is very bad at melee, and the temporary berserk boost isn't sufficient to fix it. But then, maybe my character was just too magic oriented.
This might be another case of some races/builds will love this and some won't. Maybe necro melee being too weak is the problem.

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Crush: Um. No disrespect, but when running around 4000 feet down in Angband, my Nec would like to instantly get rid of ancient dragons, not metallic centipedes...
This was meant to be how you described Dispel Life - useful for clearing the field. Looks like it's not powerful enough - maybe double the player's level? Or is it just too weak and too similar to Dispel Life?


Thanks for all the comments, that's really useful. Part of the quietness on this thread is because I'm taking a long time getting the Command spell in the form I want it. The upside of that is that to do so I'm having to write into the game the capacity for monsters to be able to attack other monsters, which is something I can see being useful in other (strictly limited) places.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:39   #350
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The upside of that is that to do so I'm having to write into the game the capacity for monsters to be able to attack other monsters, which is something I can see being useful in other (strictly limited) places.
You could check how I implemented that for Necromancers and Summoners in PWMAngband.
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