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Old June 26, 2020, 12:36   #1
Petoften
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Basic weapon question

First, hi, I posted here when I played before and got great help I appreciate.

I decided to play a bit more, and have another 'newbie topic'.

Might have more as I play, high odds, but this one is, I decided to play a warrior. I'm finding that a Scimitar (6, 5) with 4d2 base damage, has 20.5 damage/round, while a dagger (3, 4) with base 1d4 damage has 43.3 damage/round!

That's quite surprising to me. I understand the idea of weapon speed being a factor, but what looks like a worse weapon having more than 2x damage!

Does that make any sense as a design? Isn't it overvaluing speed?

Similarly, a mace (6, 6) with base 2d4 has only 23.5 damage/round - but it has dragon slaying and even against dragons it's only 37.1.

Does this really mean, daggers are just that good and throw the other ones on the ground?

OK, I just realized I also have another question, and am wondering whether I should make a thread to ask a lot of little questions as they come up. This one is for clarification on scrolls of deep descent. When should be used generally, if at all intentionally? I remember reading some people saying, go as deep as fast as you can. Even if that's right, is it better to use it early or save it for... when?
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Old June 26, 2020, 12:55   #2
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The key difference is the number of attacks per round. The dagger is very light so you get 3 attacks per turn, the other weapons only give you one. So per attack the dagger is much worse but per turn (which is the relevant metric) it is superior. If you advance further and get higher strength and dexterity you will get more attacks per second with heavier weapons but in the beginning the best weapons for strong melee chars are light weapons like daggers and rapiers.
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Old June 26, 2020, 12:58   #3
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daggers are the best weapons at the beginning. Also, consider that you will likely wear a ring of damage, which adds +X damage per-blow.
However, you will reach max blows fairly soon. Once you raise your STR/DEX enough, you will get the same number of blows with heavier weapons, and that is when you switch.

And, once you start getting artifact drops, you don't really do the calculations anymore, because you start to value artifacts based on which powers they have.
It is only late in the game that you go back to maximum damage (generally damage vs Evil)
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Old June 26, 2020, 13:12   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petoften View Post
Does that make any sense as a design? Isn't it overvaluing speed?
That is a concern others have expressed. For now that's the current system, sorry. Another alternative is currently being tested, but changing combat mechanics has huge implications on the game balance and is not an easy change.
A plus of the current system is that light weapons are best in the early game and heavy weapons are best in the late game, which is nice and realistic. Just imagine your level-1 adventurer is just *very* unfit and has difficulty lifting a scimitar or a mace.

Quote:
scrolls of deep descent. When should be used generally, if at all intentionally? I remember reading some people saying, go as deep as fast as you can. Even if that's right, is it better to use it early or save it for... when?
If you are a new player, I suggest not reading them at all. It is best to go down/up with your feet, so that you can gauge more easily if you are too deep before it is fatal. For me, they start being useful in the second half of the game (DLVL 50-90), where there are a lot of very similar levels that you may want to skip.
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Old June 26, 2020, 14:20   #5
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Hey - you're preaching to the choir on daggers vs. heavier weapons.
I had a +6, +6 dagger on a warrior that was doing more damage than excecute damage heavy weaponry and just shook my head

As to deep descent - there are points in the game where some consider it better to stop/slow down until they have a certain resist - aka "don't go down 1000 ft without free action" or "don't go down 2000 feet without rPoison"
This causes the @ to be over powered for their level while they scounge around for that ring or boots with that characteristic.
But once they have Deep descent - especially to try and reach 1500 where the gain stat potions begin is quite useful.

Also later in the 3K to 45K


Honestly, some of the funner games I've had are early characters that read one way too early and end up OOD at 400/450 feet at CL 3 or 4.

I love gaining multiple levels by killing one thing
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Old June 26, 2020, 15:39   #6
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Its also worth keeping in mind that ?dd is the 1st non-phase teleportation you find. It may not be instant but it does get you off a level pretty fast
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Old June 26, 2020, 16:43   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
That is a concern others have expressed. For now that's the current system, sorry. Another alternative is currently being tested, but changing combat mechanics has huge implications on the game balance and is not an easy change.
I'm open to the answer, 'yes, it's a good design, yes it overvalues speed, and it works for gameplay'. Just wish it was more intuitive.
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Old June 26, 2020, 18:30   #8
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You think it's non-intuitive now?

When I was a ute, the mechanics were the same but they didn't give you damage statistics for your weaponry in the description.

I made soooo.. many bad weapons choices back in the 90's
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Old June 26, 2020, 19:39   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sffp View Post
You think it's non-intuitive now?

When I was a ute, the mechanics were the same but they didn't give you damage statistics for your weaponry in the description.

I made soooo.. many bad weapons choices back in the 90's
For snow stories, I used to play rogue when it was only on PDP's
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Old June 26, 2020, 19:52   #10
Petoften
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OK, what the heck. Found a ring of the mouse, +2 dex. It makes my dagger go from 43 damage to 17 damage!

clearly the (0, -8) does something bad. Is that (damage, to hit) or what?

Guess I'll be dropping that.
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