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Old January 17, 2019, 23:45   #61
Raerick
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I would like for hunger to mean more rather than ever be removed. Such as rations/satisfy hunger not being quite as filling as they are and impairing stats/slowing HP and SP regen when hungry. Satisfy hunger in particular is just too powerful whether in spell or scroll form. I think it should instead take you to a few hundred above hungry rather than completely filling you up and it shouldn't stack above that point.

Slow digestion should also be changed to simply slowing the rate of fullness depletion rather than being effectively never eat again, or slow digestion should be changed to magical satiation.

If hunger mattered more and rations/satisfy hunger were nerfed then the fullness gained by mushrooms could also be buffed a bit along with having some of the weaker mushrooms be more common (especially on cavern levels.)
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Old January 18, 2019, 00:30   #62
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In order for hunger to be meaningful, it has to change player behavior in an interesting way. Just increasing the mechanical consequences isn't enough if the player just says "OK, now I have to recall to town more often to stock up on food". You want the player to be taking their food supply and hunger level into account at a deeper level.

I think that means that probably the General Store has to go in its entirety, or at least it can't sell food any more -- either way, it's weird to have the possibility of the player starving to death when the town exists. You also need to make sure that the player can't trivially scum level 1 for food, or else that becomes the new "go to the General Store to stock up on food", just more tedious. So maybe food only gets generated the first time you visit a dungeon depth? That's basically how Rogue worked, isn't it? Very gamey and non-simulationist but it'd probably work.

I guess you could also do things like, food cannot be carried, only eaten immediately on being touched, so that the player can't carry tens of thousands of turns' worth of food in their packs. But then you would also probably want to make it so the player isn't discouraged from walking on food tiles when they aren't hungry, so "food" then becomes a resource you automatically replenish by exploring the dungeon...it just ends up being very strange, very fast.

What do you want food to mean? How do you want it to be meaningful?
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Old January 18, 2019, 00:34   #63
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After you guys end hunger I hope you tackle world peace.
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Old January 18, 2019, 00:36   #64
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Originally Posted by HallucinationMushroom View Post
After you guys end hunger I hope you tackle world peace.
Well, you can win Sil as a pacifist...
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Old January 18, 2019, 08:05   #65
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
In order for hunger to be meaningful, it has to change player behavior in an interesting way. Just increasing the mechanical consequences isn't enough if the player just says "OK, now I have to recall to town more often to stock up on food". You want the player to be taking their food supply and hunger level into account at a deeper level.

I think that means that probably the General Store has to go in its entirety, or at least it can't sell food any more -- either way, it's weird to have the possibility of the player starving to death when the town exists. You also need to make sure that the player can't trivially scum level 1 for food, or else that becomes the new "go to the General Store to stock up on food", just more tedious. So maybe food only gets generated the first time you visit a dungeon depth? That's basically how Rogue worked, isn't it? Very gamey and non-simulationist but it'd probably work.

I guess you could also do things like, food cannot be carried, only eaten immediately on being touched, so that the player can't carry tens of thousands of turns' worth of food in their packs. But then you would also probably want to make it so the player isn't discouraged from walking on food tiles when they aren't hungry, so "food" then becomes a resource you automatically replenish by exploring the dungeon...it just ends up being very strange, very fast.

What do you want food to mean? How do you want it to be meaningful?
Just ideas, i don't know how they fit into the game mechanics...
You can make food rot with time. Rotten food can't be eaten or has x% chance acting like salt water or other negative effects (- to hit/speed/etc for some time). Orcs/trolls don't care about food being rotten but can't eat elvish bread (or it acts the same as rotten food for humans). I know this brings the problem of auto-merging food when you step on it (but we have the same for torches). But at least you couldn't carry food forever.
In some games being full meant higher chance to hit as i remember (Ishar for example). That could also be added. As below said satisfy hunger should not make you full.

Currently food does not bring anything interesting to the game for me. I eat in the town, bring 2-3 food/scroll when going into the dungeon and when i need the inventory slot i eat again or drop them. I did not try the new classes though. The best way in my opinion is to add it as a birth option.
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Old January 18, 2019, 08:56   #66
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Civil war + Famine + Corruption = 1000 Au tins of spaghetti from the BM.

More serious I don't think you're going to make food interesting without making it "the game" aka. Unreal World or gimmicky aka. Nethack.

I'd be more interested in a balance that accepts food is not a real concern with ?WOR & balance it around Ironman play. Balance it as a restriction on the rest command where you pretty much have ample time to rest but not to go overboard.
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Old January 18, 2019, 09:06   #67
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Roguelike gamedesign: food problem

Let's remember Frodo who went to Mordor from Lothlorien. He got limited supplies and he should be causious with them. It was fun

1) Food is a resource which slowly depleted (the same as light); it works differently in compare to other sources, like HP (which depleted very fast, but only during the battle).

2) With such long-term resources there should be rare occasions which brings 'crysis' to it. There are RNG events which could drain this resource at once: mobs EAT_FOOD, traps; and also draining it's more slowly - curses, wearing powerful items (magical rings in Nethack). The more different events like this - the better (I mean diversity). Some of them should be higly unpredicted.

Considering RNG - it would be great to add ego monsters, like it's implemented in TomeNET. Please Nick, check this out. And among such monster could be 'hungry' mobs. So occasionally even simple orc could EAT_FOOD from you.

3) Town is a place to restock food. Of course, making player to go there too often is bad; but please remember that recalling to the dungeon every now and then increasing risks (you could appear in the middle of 'bad lvl'). Anyway, player should be able to get certain amount of food in town to be able to solve RNG 'crysis' (the same way as we buy healing potions), but not have too much of it to become bored (that's why I recently made an experimental price x100 on satisfy hunger scrolls (for BM) and removed them from sale @ PWMA).

The question is: how to make player 'search' for food while in the dungeon. In IronMan mode it's quite clear, but in regular mode with unlimited WoR mechanics it could bring additional food 'grind' to the game. So if we would apply nethack approach and would make food to rot in time (in Angband it could be made like this: let's it just looses 'turns' in time) - player would have to return to dungeon more often.. It could be solved by making WoR scrolls more limited resource too.. But it would make players to have boring walk long way by stairs sometimes.. So it's quote complex issue.

Ok. Why not to remove food from town?! Logic: it's dire time, war with Morgoth is going on, 1kg of gold cost less than 1kg of wheat. So shortage is quite logical. It bring the game closer to 'ironman' experience, but as you still could recall back to town, it's not an ironman!..

I'll try to test it @ my PWMA server and would report there after a while Hunger is comming (tm)
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Old January 18, 2019, 11:04   #68
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I would genuinely stop playing if food was changed into forced descent.
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Old January 18, 2019, 11:57   #69
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Why to force? It could be just an option :P But it's pretty easy to customize it right now with great .txt configs (already did it for PWMA)

Also wanna add some more radical thingy: what about to give possibility to eat corpses? (it's a pity there is no CHA... eating corpse could be fun way to 'play' with it). Maybe eating corpses could give different effects? (from slow & confusion when eating foul trolls to speed&hallucinations bonus by eating magical mushrooms).

Also if you play 'fair' race/class (elfs, dwards, paladin, priest etc) - give more long-term debuffs.. (so hobbit who would eat corpses would become Gollum-like: stupid (-int, -wis), but dexterious)..

In PWMA there are already corpses implemented for Necromant class.. (but no eating yet lol). So it looks like at least as not impossilbe to implement

I understand that Angband probably should preserve traditional features and has it's own way, which I'm ignorant yet, as I'm new in this community.. But still wanna join brainstorm =)
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Old January 18, 2019, 14:47   #70
Raerick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
In order for hunger to be meaningful, it has to change player behavior in an interesting way. Just increasing the mechanical consequences isn't enough if the player just says "OK, now I have to recall to town more often to stock up on food". You want the player to be taking their food supply and hunger level into account at a deeper level.

I think that means that probably the General Store has to go in its entirety, or at least it can't sell food any more -- either way, it's weird to have the possibility of the player starving to death when the town exists. You also need to make sure that the player can't trivially scum level 1 for food, or else that becomes the new "go to the General Store to stock up on food", just more tedious. So maybe food only gets generated the first time you visit a dungeon depth? That's basically how Rogue worked, isn't it? Very gamey and non-simulationist but it'd probably work.

I guess you could also do things like, food cannot be carried, only eaten immediately on being touched, so that the player can't carry tens of thousands of turns' worth of food in their packs. But then you would also probably want to make it so the player isn't discouraged from walking on food tiles when they aren't hungry, so "food" then becomes a resource you automatically replenish by exploring the dungeon...it just ends up being very strange, very fast.

What do you want food to mean? How do you want it to be meaningful?
As for avoiding scumming for food that is never going to happen with anything that is useful to a player unless that player refuses to scum. You can't both make food meaningful without also raising the likeliness that a player will scum for it. Making something ubiquitous or meaningless to avoid scumming really isn't a good solution.

Removing the general store sounds like a terrible idea to me and in fact I think the stores need some work in general to make them more useful in the long run, but that is a different subject. If food was harder/impossible to get in town or the food in town was weaker, then having the adventurer parties encountered in the dungeon have a chance to drop food wouldn't be that hard of a change to make. Those are encountered at a reasonable rate without the need to scum levels.

I would like to add that hunger probably shouldn't be a death sentence as it currently is. Hunger should be a factor in how healthy and energetic the character is on their long trek through Angband to slay Morgoth. Not everyday a banquet or the threat of starvation outweighing the threat of the enemies at hand. Right now hunger is effectively binary. You are either fainting or not. There is fundamentally no difference betweeen FULL and HUNGRY or any of the the turn increments between full and fainting. If you weren't guaranteed death if you couldn't find food for too long, but merely had the risk of dying during an encounter increase due to being weakened, then you could avoid saving up food or scumming for it. It would become a calculated risk whether you kept your character well fed or not. All that would be left after that would be adjusting the availability of food to make that risk meaningfully weigh on the player. The current binary system makes food being plenteous necessary.
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