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Old September 27, 2017, 20:36   #11
Estie
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Why this hostility towards teleport other ?

Angband confronts the player with a mixed population of monsters, from harmless to invincible, at the same time. Most games must make sure the opposition is balanced, not Angband, and the reason is teleport other. The player´s job is to garner something from out of this mix and the tools are fighting, stealth and teleport other. Note that teleport other is not affected by monster difficulty, nor is stealth - while there are easy and hard to wake monsters, the distribution is not (very much) afected by nonster level. This is essential and any attempt to make harder monsters harder to control is likely to collapse this building.

This is an aspect of Angband that makes it so enjoyable for me. The game doesnt give me a customized opponent of correct power with a predetermined way to fight it. It just makes vaults and populates them with random monsters, leaving it to me how or whether at all I want to try and overcome them. A wyrm in an early vault can stop me from opening it, or not if I have TO, likewise Adunaphel can stop me even if I have TO. This is why I dont like the better pathfinding - it brings the game closer to "only wake it if you can fight it".

It is certainly possible to change the rules so @ of power x can maximally encounter succesfully monster of power f(x), where f is more or less linear, and that is exactly how the vast majority of games are designed. I wouldnt want Angband to take that direction.
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Old September 27, 2017, 21:24   #12
AnonymousHero
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@Estie: I too like TO, but I think I can see where the nay-sayers to TO are coming from.

TO is an effect like almost no other -- it's so powerful compared to everything else that it's really difficult to balance against monster power, tactics, etc. As an example: Unless Nick & co. go really out of their way to introduce meaningful mob mechanics and cooperation among monsters, TO is basically a "get out of jail free" card... and it's hard to balance that kind of "infinite" power against anything.

This has become kind of a hobby-horse of mine, but I find it instructive to look at Baldur's Gate No-Reload play as an analogue of perma-death. Obviously, the mechanics are much different in general, but BG no-reload derives a huge amount of its tactical interest from having no teleportation of any kind[1], nor WoR[2]. Obviously, I don't think Angband should strive to become BG no-reload, but I'm just saying that it is in fact possible to craft fascinating gameplay (even more than Angband, IMO) in similar games where you have no WoR/TO/Teleport.

[1] Well, there's a couple of very limited spells that have similar effects, but they'll almost never get you out of a losing situation. I. e. they can prevent losing situations from arising (by sheer improbability), but you can't rely on them saving your bacon at the last minute.

[2] Obviously, having a "shallow" tree structure of 'dungeons' helps immensely here.
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Old September 27, 2017, 21:38   #13
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This may be off-topic, but as a fellow Baldur's Gater who still owns all the original cd's...

You know, when I replayed the whole BG this year (thanks beamdog!) I really understood one thing: that magic becomes very fast too powerful if you have a good mage.

To put it bluntly: use stinking cloud + summon undead until you get chaos, then use only chaos until you get time stop + greater alacrity. With this two combos and the chaos spell BG is a cakewalk even on insane difficulty and it gets even easier on insane if you play a sorcerer-thief-combo. Way too powerful and unbalanced!

TO goes in that direction, but I really like Derakons suggestion! Pinning a monster down to a tile for some time (=making it absolutely immobile) instead of TO'ing it away sounds interesting.

How about an item that makes you invisible or non-attackable for one monster? (Rod of Invisibility, Wand of Peace) Of course, as soon as you attack that monster, the charm's gone - maybe even for good as long as you stay in that level.

I know I shouldn't say that, but what about pit fights? Staff of Friendship => a monster becomes your ally for a certain amount of turns => lay back, grab popcorn and watch how a P smashes through some o's ;D

@Derakon: Muting enemies? I totally want that anti-Q weapon!
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Old September 27, 2017, 22:14   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Angband confronts the player with a mixed population of monsters, from harmless to invincible, at the same time. Most games must make sure the opposition is balanced, not Angband, and the reason is teleport other. The player´s job is to garner something from out of this mix and the tools are fighting, stealth and teleport other. Note that teleport other is not affected by monster difficulty, nor is stealth - while there are easy and hard to wake monsters, the distribution is not (very much) afected by nonster level. This is essential and any attempt to make harder monsters harder to control is likely to collapse this building.

This is an aspect of Angband that makes it so enjoyable for me. The game doesnt give me a customized opponent of correct power with a predetermined way to fight it. It just makes vaults and populates them with random monsters, leaving it to me how or whether at all I want to try and overcome them. A wyrm in an early vault can stop me from opening it, or not if I have TO, likewise Adunaphel can stop me even if I have TO. This is why I dont like the better pathfinding - it brings the game closer to "only wake it if you can fight it".
Interesting - I'll keep that in mind. The two main tasks for 4.2 are refresh of the monster list and of player classes, and the art will be to make the monsters interesting and challenging and make sure the player has the tools to deal with them.
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Old September 28, 2017, 00:37   #15
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Just a note. TO is not "uniquely powerful." There's also Teleport Level, (Mass) Banishment, Destruction, and Alter Reality. The issue isn't Teleport Other; it's guaranteed escapes of any sort.
If you don't like escapes, you might wish to play Sil.
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Old September 28, 2017, 00:42   #16
Pete Mack
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I actually like the improved pathfinding, for the same reason OP doesn't.
It makes TO a little less of a guaranteed escape, since the powerful monsters will eventually find their way back. (It also makes certain fights easier: Sauron, Ungoliant, and other high-HP uniques in particular are easier to fight if you are able to completely control where you fight them.)

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Interesting - I'll keep that in mind. The two main tasks for 4.2 are refresh of the monster list and of player classes, and the art will be to make the monsters interesting and challenging and make sure the player has the tools to deal with them.
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Old September 28, 2017, 01:19   #17
Derakon
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Quote:
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Just a note. TO is not "uniquely powerful." There's also Teleport Level, (Mass) Banishment, Destruction, and Alter Reality. The issue isn't Teleport Other; it's guaranteed escapes of any sort.
If you don't like escapes, you might wish to play Sil.
Teleport Other is unique in its functionally-unlimited availability for all classes, even warriors, and its "cleanliness" -- you aren't forced off the level as with Teleport Level or Alter Reality, and you don't risk destroying anything valuable like with Destruction. While I would characterize the other effects you listed as being primarily escape items with limited tactical use, Teleport Other is primarily a tactical item with limited use as an escape.

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Some rather hasty words
If I've done something to offend you, please do let me know, either publicly or via PM.

I am putting ideas out there. They are not always good ideas. I'm relying on this community and the dev team to help either turn them into good ideas or convincingly determine that that is not possible. It's brainstorming, nothing more.

When discussing ideas, in any context, I rarely find it helpful to say "That won't work because." That's a destructive contribution; it doesn't do anything except shut people down. Rather say "How would this idea handle this specific consequence that I foresee?" For example, "how would we make certain that status effects that are guaranteed to land don't just become a mandatory prelude to every big fight?" That's a constructive contribution: you're challenging the idea to become better in a specific manner, and if the idea can't be adapted to solve that problem, then you have a compelling reason for why it shouldn't be implemented.

I've strived to use this approach to constructive criticism in the many conversations we've all had on these forums. Oftentimes ideas are put forth without much forethought -- by myself included! I'd much rather see someone spout off an idea without fully thinking it through, than I would see people be too afraid to suggest anything because every time they do they get shouted down. It's then the community's job to help refine the thinking behind the idea and determine if it's gold or dross. Truthfully most ideas are dross; game design is hard and it's very easy to have unintended consequences. The more ideas we can catch before Nick et al have to put in the effort to implement them, the better.
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Old September 28, 2017, 09:19   #18
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Apologies, the tone was intended as more light hearted than it came across. I do think you make good contributions here, but I think it was discussed in the previous thread - you mostly play warriors. I enjoy(ed) using effects like confuse and slow even if they didn't always work. Now that they always work but are almost never useful a large part of the way I play the game got cut away (I still use sleep monster a lot, because it was unchanged and is still useful).

Your new idea ITT basically amounts to changing all status effect into weakened versions of sleep monster.

I still contend that the original effects we had for several decades which feature in other roguelikes are a good idea and they work, they just needed the probability distributions tweaked.

We got a new formula when the status changes came in, but we also got the status effect changes which made it moot.

I believe Nick and Takkaria are aware of my arguments for this, so I'm content the put it on the list of things to change in a variant I make, mostly, but I still feel the need to make snide comments when the subject comes up apparently.

You haven't offended me, the status effect changes you proposed which feature in 4.1.0 have.
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Old September 28, 2017, 10:42   #19
wobbly
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I mostly agree with Gwarl that other variants, such as O handle this better. that said as to whether they are currently useful: I've seen Ingwe take stun into the Morgoth fight every time I've watched. I've been using hold monster pre-to mostly to block a corridor.
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Old September 28, 2017, 10:52   #20
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Interesting - I'll keep that in mind. The two main tasks for 4.2 are refresh of the monster list and of player classes, and the art will be to make the monsters interesting and challenging and make sure the player has the tools to deal with them.
Are we going to get Nrulings? Those things are absolute bastards.
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