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Old September 28, 2017, 12:14   #21
Philip
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O is not a good model for status effects. Unless you have full monster memory, using a status effect in any given fight is a bad idea. If you have full monster memory, it's almost certainly a bad idea, unless it's one of the extremely powerful later ones (Wand of Saruman and Mage spell Beguiling basically), or you have a charge in a wand you were going to drag up to sell anyway.

Please introduce Nrulings and also Crows of Durthang (and modify monster generation so that they can turn up on dlvl 1, as in O), Also beef up Storms of Unmagic to O levels, and add Wiruin. That should be a start.
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Old September 28, 2017, 16:05   #22
Gwarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
I mostly agree with Gwarl that other variants, such as O handle this better. that said as to whether they are currently useful: I've seen Ingwe take stun into the Morgoth fight every time I've watched. I've been using hold monster pre-to mostly to block a corridor.
I object to the way stun works for other reasons. Hold is like a bad sleep monster. I just want my slow and confuse back.
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Old September 29, 2017, 21:58   #23
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I have to say I'm basically with Derakon on TO. It really is fundamentally different to the other super-powers and needs to be thought of and "balanced" (for gameplay) as such.

Unfortunately, I don't have any creative ideas as to what to do about it, exactly, but perhaps just making it non-zero-fail (assuming the activation/spell fires) would make it a lot more interesting. (But that throws off one of the core mechanics of "funnel + TO" when encountering vaults... but maybe that's OK?) Maybe change to a beam and a 20% baseline chance to resist with +10% for uniques or something like that? Just throwing it out there, it's not something I've spent too much time thinking about.
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Old September 30, 2017, 01:24   #24
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Options might be
-have the distance TOed inversely related to the level of the monster in some way.
-Have a counter for the number of times TO has been used on a given level. The more times you've used it, the more likely it will act like Teleport Level on the character.

Both of these would keep it always useful as an escape, but maybe limit no-repercussion spamming.
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Old September 30, 2017, 04:41   #25
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Originally Posted by bio_hazard View Post
have the distance TOed inversely related to the level of the monster in some way.
I like this, as an analog sort of "teleportation resistance". In-between being teleported across the level and not being teleported at all, monsters might simply blink as per Phase Door. With appropriate messaging, you could clue in the player about what's going on and help them infer that TO gets steadily less useful as you try to use it on bigger targets.

However, players probably shouldn't get the same kind of partial resistance; blinking in the middle of a fight can easily be more dangerous than teleporting.
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Old September 30, 2017, 18:41   #26
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It wouldn't have to be straight-up based on native depth, but could also be a function of device skill or spell level or whatever. I suppose it would depend on if you are mainly interested in early or mid-game vault-raiding or whether this is something that's going to change how TO is used in the end-game.

I didn't think about the reverse case of players being teleported. The binary save seems to work pretty well.
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Old September 30, 2017, 23:26   #27
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If you're going to kill teleport, you might as well do away with greater vaults, at least below around DL 80. There is no way to deal with a 40 level OOD monster except teleport and avoidance.
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Old October 1, 2017, 00:02   #28
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I don't think either of those suggestions "kill teleport" or necessarily change vault strategy. In case of changing tele distance, it would just increase the probability of return/lessen the time you have before a powerful monster makes it's way back to the vault.

For the chance-to-TL mechanic, worst case is you don't complete the vault and end up on a new level with a guaranteed move before monsters. I think this would be frustrating, but only deadly if you stash vulnerable consumables somewhere and get booted before you can retrieve them.

For what it's worth, I don't feel like TO is necessarily broken, more like an option for players to rely on to whatever degree they feel like they want to. It sure helps, but you still need some skill to deal with line of sight etc.
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Old October 2, 2017, 00:11   #29
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Just thought it's worth mentioning - I still have no plans to change teleport other, and the recent changes to teleport self have been only to put the code for it on a sounder footing (and there is still some work needed there).
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Old October 2, 2017, 00:47   #30
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Guys: the way to fix vault behavior isn't messing with TO. It's fixing wierdnesses in pathfinding. If TO distance gets nerfed, the rational response is to TO a whole lot of weak monsters until one ends up near the entrance to the vault. After that, phase door to the vault, then TO to your hearts content. The weak monsters will stay away, and block stronger monsters.
The fix I recommend: give ALL monsters exchange places if the other monster is either asleep or 20+ DLs weaker. Get rid of "passes by weaker monsters" entirely.
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