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Old March 6, 2018, 21:36   #11
Voovus
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I think the issue is partly that, unlike most monsters, hounds don't become "obsolete". Dealing with the first snaga, gelateneous cube or ancient dragon is often an interesting challenge, but after a while @ starts eating these creatures like popcorn and they don't slow down the game. Most hounds, on the other hand, remain a danger either to @'s life or equipment and take time to deal with - it simply becomes too repetitive. The first pack of gravity hounds is interesting - the fifth one is "not again...". In this sense, I don't think it's so much a question of weakening or strengthening hounds as dealing with their frequency. As Philip suggested, making hounds not always be awake might work very well, though there's a danger that we'll all just start carrying a staff of sleep monsters and avoid hounds altogether. Or maybe the probability of any given monster spawning should either be inversely proportional to how many of them @ has killed, or dramatically reduce with dlvl once it's too deep for them? To be honest, seeing a scout, a gallant, an acolyte and an apprentice 4500' deep is cute, but also a little silly...
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Old March 6, 2018, 23:04   #12
luneya
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Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
I think the issue is partly that, unlike most monsters, hounds don't become "obsolete". Dealing with the first snaga, gelateneous cube or ancient dragon is often an interesting challenge, but after a while @ starts eating these creatures like popcorn and they don't slow down the game. Most hounds, on the other hand, remain a danger either to @'s life or equipment and take time to deal with - it simply becomes too repetitive. The first pack of gravity hounds is interesting - the fifth one is "not again...". In this sense, I don't think it's so much a question of weakening or strengthening hounds as dealing with their frequency. As Philip suggested, making hounds not always be awake might work very well, though there's a danger that we'll all just start carrying a staff of sleep monsters and avoid hounds altogether. Or maybe the probability of any given monster spawning should either be inversely proportional to how many of them @ has killed, or dramatically reduce with dlvl once it's too deep for them? To be honest, seeing a scout, a gallant, an acolyte and an apprentice 4500' deep is cute, but also a little silly...
There's a difference between the hounds not being awake on level generation and them being vulnerable to sleep monster. Though, frankly, sleep monster is weak enough that it probably isn't worth carrying even if it does work on dangerous things. If you're stealthy, you won't wake things up in the first place. If you're not stealthy, casting sleep is useless, as the monster won't stay asleep long enough for you to get away.

If we want sleep staves and spells to be actually useful, perhaps it would be worth incorporating dangerous monsters that start off awake (like current hounds) but have no resistance and very low save % against sleep spells, so that the "cast sleep and run" strategy would be viable against such enemies. At present, about the only time that a scenario like this occurs is when the player enters a level somewhere near a monster pit. And that's a rare enough circumstance that I, for one, generally don't even remember that I have a mass sleep spell in my spellbook. I just head right back up the upstairs, ditching the level. Or if I don't have connected stairs to work with, I use tele self or recall to get away from the pit of monsters that I don't want to fight.
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Old March 7, 2018, 00:44   #13
Pete Mack
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How many packs of gravity hounds do you meet in a game? I can see an argument for getting rid of some of the less dangerous (and damaging) ones, like vibration multi-hued, clear (free HP, maybe nether. But by and large i dont meet more than 3-6 packs of any kind, exce0t the lowest level ones, where there are fewer other monsters to choose from. It's just one more reason to dive between dl 20 and 30.
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Old March 10, 2018, 04:26   #14
wobbly
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I vote for more hounds & more dangerous hounds

More seriously I suspect the reduction in pack sizes inadvertently messed with the safety of teleporting. Then the changes to breath damage messed with it again. Teleporting now seems safer than it should be. Not sure what I'd recommend here, the current balance is going to be thrown out when the monster list is redone. I'd just keep in mind something needs to mess with teleports. I currently teleport a lot just because I'm too lazy to wonder round the whole level.
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Old March 10, 2018, 05:14   #15
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We could always rewrite teleporting so it always landed you next to a monster.
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Old April 25, 2018, 22:24   #16
Moving Pictures
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Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
There's one issue atm... with impact hounds. Basically when you meet one in a corridor, it goes like this:

Z-------------------@

Z---@

"the impact hound breathes force"

Z--------------------@

The only way to deal with it is with spells or magic devices.
Or better speed. Or teleport other. Or banish Z. Or wand of immolate puppy.

What we do need are arrows of slay hound....

{edit} With the one mage I pushed down to deep levels, I developed a landing routine
(Detect monsters)
(Map)
(Banish Z)
(Detect treasure)

Last edited by Moving Pictures; April 25, 2018 at 23:01.
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Old April 25, 2018, 22:45   #17
Moving Pictures
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We could always rewrite teleporting so it always landed you next to a monster.
Given that one is, should one teleport self, likely to land in the same room as the four "I can't handle this critter, except, maybe alone, and even then ..." uniques/wryms/whatever that you TOed out of a vault earlier in the level, it's kinda like that already.
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Old April 27, 2018, 06:27   #18
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Or better speed. Or teleport other. Or banish Z. Or wand of immolate puppy.

What we do need are arrows of slay hound....
Don't hounds count as animals? I know the weak basic-element hounds all do, but haven't fought the really dangerous ones often enough for the question to arise. If the dangerous hounds aren't animals, maybe making it so that they are would be a good change. It would give players a slay that works against them, and it would also make slay animal not completely useless beyond the early game.
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Old April 27, 2018, 13:36   #19
Pete Mack
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Yes, hounds are animals. But only a very small number--two, to be precise--aren't affected by most elemental brands.
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Old April 27, 2018, 14:16   #20
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once ur strong enough hounds get pretty decent xp for u tbh, i think hounds are nice the way they are,,

ofc u run from stronger hounds but once ur in the endgame u run from alot of things tbh anyway,,,,
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