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Old March 3, 2018, 12:19   #1
gglibertine
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I thought I'd hate the changes in v4. I love them!

I don't post here very often (or play Angband very often these days, though I do go on week-long binges every few months), but I felt like I should pop my head in and thank everyone who helped make v4 so amazing.

When I read about some of the more dramatic changes, I was absolutely sure I was going to hate the new version. I was especially peeved by the removal of Detect Traps/Doors, which I've always relied on heavily to help me find my way around. (I found it easier to use that to give me a rough outline of the level than to use Mapping, which made it harder for me to tell where I'd already been.) I was also unhappy with the change to how Identify works.

Then I started playing, and... WOW. It's so much better! The changes that seemed so strange to me were really well thought out, and I'm now on board with nearly all of them.

I have only one complaint: removing the ability to search makes it *really* hard for less perspicacious characters in some cases. As someone noted in the bugs thread, spotting hidden doors being dependent on moving means that if you find yourself surrounded by hidden doors you can't see, there's no way to find them without Phase Door or TP -- you're just stuck. I've also had a couple of characters unable to find their way to a down staircase because they just couldn't locate the hidden door that would get them there. It's also frustrating finding myself confused every few turns because my dwarf priest is too oblivious to spot traps -- recovering from being confused *so* often eats up torches and food like crazy.

Does anyone else feel like this particular change skews the balance of the game a little too strongly in favor of e.g. hobbit rogues?

That said -- THANK YOU to everyone who worked so hard on the new version. I appreciate all your efforts to keep improving the only non-Maxis game I've ever really liked. (Well, I used to like Nethack but then I found Angband and never looked back.) You're all awesome.
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Old March 3, 2018, 15:46   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gglibertine View Post
I don't post here very often (or play Angband very often these days, though I do go on week-long binges every few months), but I felt like I should pop my head in and thank everyone who helped make v4 so amazing.

When I read about some of the more dramatic changes, I was absolutely sure I was going to hate the new version. I was especially peeved by the removal of Detect Traps/Doors, which I've always relied on heavily to help me find my way around. (I found it easier to use that to give me a rough outline of the level than to use Mapping, which made it harder for me to tell where I'd already been.) I was also unhappy with the change to how Identify works.

Then I started playing, and... WOW. It's so much better! The changes that seemed so strange to me were really well thought out, and I'm now on board with nearly all of them.

I have only one complaint: removing the ability to search makes it *really* hard for less perspicacious characters in some cases. As someone noted in the bugs thread, spotting hidden doors being dependent on moving means that if you find yourself surrounded by hidden doors you can't see, there's no way to find them without Phase Door or TP -- you're just stuck. I've also had a couple of characters unable to find their way to a down staircase because they just couldn't locate the hidden door that would get them there. It's also frustrating finding myself confused every few turns because my dwarf priest is too oblivious to spot traps -- recovering from being confused *so* often eats up torches and food like crazy.

Does anyone else feel like this particular change skews the balance of the game a little too strongly in favor of e.g. hobbit rogues?

That said -- THANK YOU to everyone who worked so hard on the new version. I appreciate all your efforts to keep improving the only non-Maxis game I've ever really liked. (Well, I used to like Nethack but then I found Angband and never looked back.) You're all awesome.
I do think runeID is better, but I still get very frustrated that I cannot ID scrolls. I keep reading them and it spoiling my fun. Like just now, 3 unID'd scrolls. I figure it's unlikely they are ?*destruction* or deep descent or teleport level because ... well, there's three of them! and those scrolls are rare. Yet, of course... they were ?deep descent. Grr!! I was on an 8/7 level with Ar-Pharazon. I didn't have TO (I was on DL36) but I just picked up haste activation boots with crazy AC [7, +47] so I was looking forward to the not *too* dangerous challenge of luring him out and leading him away from the small vault and then teleporting back to the vault. Not the end of the world, but this sorta thing keeps happening to me, like all the time, to the point where I'm terrified to read scrolls passed DL28. I actually don't know why I bother reading scrolls. I'm not a big fan of banishment/mass banishment as to me they feel like allowed cheat codes, but I *do* like the enchantment scrolls. Because I love enchantments. But, really, there are only a few important scrolls; I should just be disciplined and not read them if there's a chance of being removed from a level I'm not finished with.

It did occur to me the secret door problem might be an issue, but I play this game *A LOT* (it's basically all I do these days, and mostly bumbling characters ) and it hasn't ever been an issue. I also haven't burned through torches due to resting, but do sometimes from being careless around silver jellies. My HT Warriors often run out of food, though. I think this is a very fair penalty for a combo that is so powerful: if you are going to have the best CON and best Damage you should be penalized for it greatly; needing to rest a lot to recover from maladies doesn't seem like a very big penalty (is it even big enough?).

I had to ask Siri to define 'perspicacious' and I was an English major.
Well, I don't read enough. But now that I think about it I have encountered the word before, just not in a long time.

I play hobbits sometimes but they're low HP deter me from playing them regularly so I am not too worried about version 4 skewing the game to the advantage of hobbit rogues. But I'm a bit biased towards class combos that can kill everything as I find it much more fun than sneaking.

I actually find myself wondering: is Angband the greatest game? Which is a crazy thought because there are so many fancy, modern games with millions of dollars in budget. But all that fancy technology cannot substitute the richness and simplicity of Angband, which has had decades to be honed to the pinnacle of game design. The original Doom will probably remain my favorite game of all time even though I can no longer play it (finally burnt out on it after a billion hours of play), but I play Angband by far more than anything else these days. I think it might be interesting to port Angband to the Doom engine as a real time roguelike (not turn based). Would be helluva task, but that game engine is simple enough that any modern computer would be able to handle a Doom game with 3000 different monsters and hundreds of different items. Although meleeing in 3D games is kinda boring vs firing at moving targets at range. Melee weapons might need to be replaced by various kinds of launchers/shooting weapons.

The only real change I'd like to see to Vanilla (that I can think of at the moment) is having Rangers gain extra might instead of extra shots on their launchers; something Derakon suggested.

I like to complain a lot about various things in the game, but I'm not sure removing annoying things is always a good idea. Hound pack sizes used to be larger, now I start to miss the larger pack sizes. I think nerfing them probably was the right move, but perhaps it would have been better to have made the old pack size occur 1% of the time instead of removing them altogether. Hellhounds also used to be iconically dangerous. Now they are merely only dangerous.
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Old March 3, 2018, 20:09   #3
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Originally Posted by gglibertine View Post
I have only one complaint: removing the ability to search makes it *really* hard for less perspicacious characters in some cases. As someone noted in the bugs thread, spotting hidden doors being dependent on moving means that if you find yourself surrounded by hidden doors you can't see, there's no way to find them without Phase Door or TP -- you're just stuck.
The current system is that if you step next to a secret door, you automatically notice it, always - there's no perception check like there is for traps. So I think this should not be a problem - or am I missing something?
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Old March 3, 2018, 20:59   #4
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Unless I am misreading the complaint, the problem is that since it only happens when you step next to the door, if you start next to it for whatever reason, and are unable to take any steps because every tile next to you is a wall or a secret door, you can't take the step that would lead to you noticing it. Presumably making waiting a turn count as a step for purposes of noticing secret doors would resolve the issue. Another resolution would be to make every effect (teleport, stairs, recall, teleport level, alter reality...) that can put you on a tile also count as a step onto that tile for the purposes of noticing secret doors, unless I'm missing something here.
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Old March 3, 2018, 22:37   #5
Ingwe Ingweron
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The current system is that if you step next to a secret door, you automatically notice it, always - there's no perception check like there is for traps. So I think this should not be a problem - or am I missing something?
This is a small bug, but still is a bug. The problem, Nick, is that when @ appears at a location, either by stairs, teleportation, or deep descent, and that location is immediately adjacent to a secret door, such door is not revealed until @ moves next to it. I.e., @ must move away from what appears to be a wall and then back to the wall in order for the door to be revealed. Merely annoying if @ can move away and player realizes they must move @ back. VERY annoying if @ is in a location surrounded by secret doors on all sides. Then, if not a mage with the find traps/doors/stairs spell, @ must phase door, teleport, or recall to escape the situation.
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Old March 3, 2018, 23:53   #6
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Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
This is a small bug, but still is a bug. The problem, Nick, is that when @ appears at a location, either by stairs, teleportation, or deep descent, and that location is immediately adjacent to a secret door, such door is not revealed until @ moves next to it. I.e., @ must move away from what appears to be a wall and then back to the wall in order for the door to be revealed. Merely annoying if @ can move away and player realizes they must move @ back. VERY annoying if @ is in a location surrounded by secret doors on all sides. Then, if not a mage with the find traps/doors/stairs spell, @ must phase door, teleport, or recall to escape the situation.
If you stand still for a turn you find the doors. It should be a quick fix to make them discovered on arrival, but maybe it's actually good to have to do the manual stand still and look around after teleporting. Opinions?
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Old March 4, 2018, 05:30   #7
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If you stand still for a turn you find the doors. It should be a quick fix to make them discovered on arrival, but maybe it's actually good to have to do the manual stand still and look around after teleporting. Opinions?
I like it as is -- it's a bit like a reminder to pay attention. Stop---look around for one turn! Or don't, and whatever happens will be...
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Old March 4, 2018, 10:52   #8
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Ahhh, that helps a bit. I've been so used to hitting 's' instead of '.' that it didn't even occur to me to try that.
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Old March 5, 2018, 08:18   #9
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Strange... I was sure the bug with secret doors was fixed... since it's fixed in PWMAngband
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Old March 5, 2018, 09:18   #10
Ingwe Ingweron
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Strange... I was sure the bug with secret doors was fixed... since it's fixed in PWMAngband
Nick, I think "FAAngband has this" just got one-upped.
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