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Old November 27, 2014, 13:28   #21
PowerWyrm
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Agreed - I didn't understand it at first, but now I do I think it's brilliant.
Or simply add a tool slot... Someday it could be used for other things as well.
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Old November 27, 2014, 13:33   #22
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Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
Or simply add a tool slot... Someday it could be used for other things as well.
Only problem with that is that it either adds an extra item of equipment to give the player bonuses (the way Cubragol is used as a speed ring), or adds a special case equipment item which doesn't give bonuses. The second option might well be manageable, but I really like the simplicity of the Sil method.
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Old November 27, 2014, 16:49   #23
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Only problem with that is that it either adds an extra item of equipment to give the player bonuses (the way Cubragol is used as a speed ring), or adds a special case equipment item which doesn't give bonuses. The second option might well be manageable, but I really like the simplicity of the Sil method.
The downside with not having a slot for diggers is that it might potentially be a little confusing. However, perhaps adding a note to the (I)nformation screen for diggers might be enough for that. (Personally I think diggers should still be wieldable as weapons whichever way this gets solved.)
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Old November 27, 2014, 18:26   #24
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How about digging takes several turn, as described ay someone earlier in the thread. Granite > Cracked > Rubble > Clear. Magical removal would be faster but less precise, removing the target grid, but also removing and/or degrading randomly chosen adjacent tiles. You want a neat and clean ASC? You better have a shovel.

In any case, % chance of earthquake might be fun.
Yuck. If you don't like digging ASCs, don't dig them... Digging *already* takes multiple turns without magic, no reason to make it even harder or messier.
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Old November 28, 2014, 05:54   #25
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Yuck. If you don't like digging ASCs, don't dig them... Digging *already* takes multiple turns without magic, no reason to make it even harder or messier.
I don't dig ASC's (as a matter of routine practice), but tunneling is *already* extraordinarily easy with any one of many highly effective means. Do you see it as being perfect the way it is, or perhaps want to make it even easier? No? I see that as a elementary reason to make it better, even if that results in some hardship. Messier was thrown in on a whim as a distinguishing characteristic, to directly differentiate purely magical from mostly ordinary digging.
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Old November 28, 2014, 11:45   #26
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I don't dig ASC's (as a matter of routine practice), but tunneling is *already* extraordinarily easy with any one of many highly effective means. Do you see it as being perfect the way it is, or perhaps want to make it even easier? No? I see that as a elementary reason to make it better, even if that results in some hardship. Messier was thrown in on a whim as a distinguishing characteristic, to directly differentiate purely magical from mostly ordinary digging.
Well, I dig a lot usually, depending on the character being played. The point is that digging is fine as it is, yes. There are already trade-offs involved if you want it to be as fast as possible (burning an inventory slot for -Digging or =Digging as swap, mana cost for those with the spell). Making it messy doesn't add value to the game IMO.
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Old November 28, 2014, 12:20   #27
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If one wants to make digging less good without being frustrating, a way to do so is to make it loud (perhaps just for manual digging). This is something Sil does. I think V might use the max_sight to limit how far sound can travel, which might make this less relevant. If so, I think V should remove (or raise) that limit. Sound is an interesting way to balance things.
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Old November 28, 2014, 12:24   #28
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Well, I dig a lot usually, depending on the character being played. The point is that digging is fine as it is, yes. There are already trade-offs involved if you want it to be as fast as possible (burning an inventory slot for -Digging or =Digging as swap, mana cost for those with the spell). Making it messy doesn't add value to the game IMO.
That was what I didn't agree with in my initial post. If you character has access to the digging spell, it is far superior to any physical digging, even if you include occasional resting times to recover mana. Even if you don't have access to the spell, using a wand of stone to mud + casting recharge is still way faster and more convenient than physical digging, although eventually your wand will break. I would like to increase the number of trade-offs by creating situations were physical digging is superior to magical digging so that the best choice for your digging needs depends on the character and on the equipment found.
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Old November 28, 2014, 16:14   #29
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If one wants to make digging less good without being frustrating, a way to do so is to make it loud (perhaps just for manual digging). This is something Sil does. I think V might use the max_sight to limit how far sound can travel, which might make this less relevant. If so, I think V should remove (or raise) that limit. Sound is an interesting way to balance things.
Vanilla's stealth could use an overhaul in general; if/when this happens, making different activities have different levels of noise would make sense. Except for the fact that we'd probably still want combat to be quiet, which is counterintuitive but necessary given Angband's other numbers. So maybe we'd just want certain activities, like digging, to be noisy.
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Old November 28, 2014, 19:03   #30
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You can handwave combat noise away by assuming that you would always expect there to be a fight or three going on in Angband at any given time, so that it would have to be a pretty big battle to really attract interest
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