Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 3, 2009, 12:23   #1
Eagle
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16
Eagle is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb Idea: Buy monsterknowledge / get rumors

I found this entry on depth 56 of this forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondkalb View Post
The main problem with *band is, that newbies need pretty much endurance to proceed because there are so many new and unknown monsters and uniques, the deeper you go. Many of them are extremely dangerous and you only will know that when you are almost or already dead.
Without enough perseverance people are likely to give up after several sudden deaths.

This had been one reason for me to play with save scumming for quite a long time until I had reached a level of reasonable knowledge (and a monster memory to remember this knowledge).

The game is still dangerous and I can't keep track of all the deadly abilities and breath attacks that any monster may have. Every time I start with a new char and therefore without any monster memory my heroes keep dying for unforeseen and daffy reasons.
A reply was that this isn't a problem but a feature of the game.
Both are true I guess.

If we want to lure more newbies into this game, shouldn't we give them a better change to survive the unknown?
So why not introduce a new money sink in the game. In which a player can buy monster knowledge in a store. The store should only sell unknown bits-and-pieces of a monster or unique. However not all information, of all the monsters, all the time. Maybe only 'scary' monsters which normally appear 2-3 levels deeper than maximum players depth. Like hand druj, radiation eye, Dreadmasters, Great Titans, Ancient Dragons and uniques. The price of this knowledge could be tied into the experienced gained for killing this monster, a formula already available in the code. So the higher the gain, the higher the price.

Perhaps we could also break the monster info down into several pieces, which the player must buy in this order to gain full pre-knowledge of the monster.

A) Basic information (price = half experience gain)
B) Defense information (price = experience gain)
C) Attack information (price = twice experience gain)

So full knowledge would cost 3,5x the experience a player would get if he/she killed the monster. (as an example)

Example for the Phoenix:

Basic information:
The Phoenix ('B')/('picture')
A Massive glowing eagle bathed in flames. The searing heat chars your skin and melts your armour. This creature is normally found on dungeon level 54. Killing this creature is worth xxxxx points for a xst level character. It may carry up to 3 good objects.

Defense information:
The Phoenix ('B')/('picture')
A Massive glowing eagle bathed in flames. The searing heat chars your skin and melts your armour. This natural creature is normally found on dungeon level 54, and moves quickly. Killing this creature is worth xxxxx points for a xst level character. It resists lightning and fire. It may carry up to 3 good objects.

Attack information:
The Phoenix ('B')/('picture')
A Massive glowing eagle bathed in flames. The searing heat chars your skin and melts your armour. This natural creature is normally found on dungeon level 54, and moves quickly. It may breathe plasma; about 1 time in 2. Killing this creature is worth xxxxx points for a xst level character. It resists lightning and fire. It may carry up to 3 good objects. It can bite to burn, bite to burn, hit to burn, and hit to burn.

Some info on the dices of the monster attack(s) would be cool too!


Apart from this system I think it would be nice to have a rumor source in which a player can be warned about monster he/she has never seen yet (free of charge). Without any actual monster information. If a player finds the rumor interesting, he/she can buy some monster info on it.
With a rumor source with valuable information in the game one could add some other flavor into the game to lure and catch new players. The first rumor a player should get is to find and kill Morgoth. A newbie doesn't even know why he is playing/diving/killing! Rumors that hint to what is found deeper are also valuable. Like hints towards the existence of Vaults, Pits, Stat. Potions, Types of Rings/staffs/rods etc.

PS. Buying information on Sauron and Morgoth should be *very* expensive.

PS.PS. As stated only 'scary' monster knowledge is for sale. A 'scary' monster is a monster that kills players a lot. There should be information available about which monster qualify. (because it's no use to spend money on a 'Lurker' for example)
Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 13:51   #2
Mondkalb
Knight
 
Mondkalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 937
Mondkalb is on a distinguished road
Appealing.
Mondkalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 15:03   #3
Maupin
Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
Maupin is on a distinguished road
I like this idea a lot. It would make Angband much more fair for newer players. I never really liked the "die until you learn" game progression mechanic, and in my opinion the game is already difficult enough for new players due to the finality of death.
Maupin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 15:20   #4
takkaria
Veteran
 
takkaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,935
Donated: $40
takkaria is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maupin View Post
I like this idea a lot. It would make Angband much more fair for newer players. I never really liked the "die until you learn" game progression mechanic, and in my opinion the game is already difficult enough for new players due to the finality of death.
The real question is: give a player a choice between buying the stuff that they need to buy, and spending money in the hope they might find something useful, which one will they choose? Z used to have this 'loremaster' service and I only ever used it for quests and I wanted to know what I was up against. If you're just roaming the dungeon, then it's significantly more useless.

IMO. Bring the counterarguments. (This is where it would be nice to be able to gather stats on how people do stuff in the game and send them back automatically...)
__________________
takkaria whispers something about options. -more-
takkaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 15:43   #5
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maupin View Post
I like this idea a lot. It would make Angband much more fair for newer players. I never really liked the "die until you learn" game progression mechanic, and in my opinion the game is already difficult enough for new players due to the finality of death.
I think save-scumming is a pretty popular mechanic for new players. And it greatly changes the game. IMO this is a pretty bad thing, and convincing players that the game is fun without save-scumming is fairly important. There are many things that could help, and a more extensive monster memory is one of them.

However, I think most of this information should come for free. You should know that the Phoenix can breathe light powerfully. And you should have a rough idea of how much damage it will take off if you don't have light resistance. Similarly, lower level monsters with dangerous side effects should have those effects known. You should know that Umber Hulks gaze to confuse, without having to learn it first by dying to one. Maybe the only things that should be hidden in the monster info is the damage from melee and the hit points.

(disclaimer: I first won with save-scumming. The only player I know in real life that never save scummed also never came close to winning. And since his name was Ben Harrison, I'm pretty sure he played the game quite a bit and knew it better than most)
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 16:55   #6
Eagle
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16
Eagle is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
The real question is: give a player a choice between buying the stuff that they need to buy, and spending money in the hope they might find something useful, which one will they choose? Z used to have this 'loremaster' service and I only ever used it for quests and I wanted to know what I was up against. If you're just roaming the dungeon, then it's significantly more useless.

IMO. Bring the counterarguments. (This is where it would be nice to be able to gather stats on how people do stuff in the game and send them back automatically...)
After the initial stage the player is basically a millionaire. (waiting for acquirement scrolls) Spending a few coins on knowledge of what evil lurks a few staircases down, seems a good investment too me. Even if it's just too know the 'look' of the bad guy on screen is valuable in itself.
The buy-monster-info-mechanism gives the inexperienced/unknowing player a change to know what he/she is up against. If he doesn't use it, he'll probably buy some info the next time.

Most importantly I think one should limit this option to the nastiest of nasty enemies. Especially the ones that cause instant death.

This scenario should be avoided:

Player sees a new monster with detect monster.
Player is interested and recall's monster memory.
"Nothing is known about it's attack"
Player isn't scared and enters the room.
It breaths, player dies.
Player thinks "What the ***! If I had known his attack I would have switch my resistances (or have walked away)"

In this case the player did nothing wrong. He took the time to check his surroundings, and based on the information available went for it. The result is a turn-off. You just can not avoid every unknown monster you encounter. (And using a rod of probing puts a player allready in sight of the bad guy). This finding out the hard way costs gamers.
In this little scenario, with the proposed shop, the carefull player can get back to town, and purchase some info on this new monster. That's an idea! Why not also sell monster info of 'seen' monsters of which the player has zero, or incomplete, information.

I'll say let's give newbies a fighting chance!
(Heck, I'll even buy certain monster info when switching to a new Angband version where I'll have zero monster memory)


The rumors can help to alert the player for free of possible instant deaths. On townlevel one could run into a battlescarred veteran. Instead of killing him he says (based on your maxDepth):
"Beware of the Phoenix! It dwells on dLevel 54. His breath is full of light that will blind your soul!!! Beware, I say. Beware!!!"

Last edited by Eagle; September 3, 2009 at 17:16.
Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 17:16   #7
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 39
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
This is sort of like an idea that I talked about with Takkaria on IRC: have scrolls lying around the dungeon which give lore on a particular unique (or a small group of monsters) when read. It should probably be (mostly) depth-appropriate... scrolls detailing Huan or Glaurung would probably not be found on dungeon level 1.

Veterans could squelch or ignore these scrolls but newbies would (potentially) benefit.

I'd be willing to code this feature up if a majority of people think it's a good idea.
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 17:21   #8
Mondkalb
Knight
 
Mondkalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 937
Mondkalb is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
This is sort of like an idea that I talked about with Takkaria on IRC: have scrolls lying around the dungeon which give lore on a particular unique (or a small group of monsters) when read. It should probably be (mostly) depth-appropriate... scrolls detailing Huan or Glaurung would probably not be found on dungeon level 1.

Veterans could squelch or ignore these scrolls but newbies would (potentially) benefit.

I'd be willing to code this feature up if a majority of people think it's a good idea.
Wonderful.
That would add useful information and flavour at the same time. Lots of other CRPGs have used ancient books and scrolls to tell the player various things about the history of the game world and such. (Baldur's Gate or The Elder Scrolls for example.)
Mondkalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 17:21   #9
Eagle
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16
Eagle is on a distinguished road
Scrolls could be cool too! (and probably easier to introduce).
However finding scrolls (and therefor it's lore) is based on chance. One could miss a particular one, and die because of it.

The nice thing about Scroll Lore is off course that it's easy to introduce all kind of Lore and flavor with them into the game. Making the whole ambiance more enjoyable. Especially for new players.
Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3, 2009, 17:27   #10
Mondkalb
Knight
 
Mondkalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 937
Mondkalb is on a distinguished road
The scrolls or knowledge books could be available in the shops, for a price.
Mondkalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Idea for a solution to TMJ TJS Vanilla 6 January 22, 2009 21:51
3.10 Bug -- General Store won't buy Lantern awldune Vanilla 2 January 10, 2009 23:01
Variant Idea Narvius Variants 5 February 27, 2008 21:24
Tavern idea paul1 Vanilla 5 October 8, 2007 18:15
this idea was some years ago... AR_chie Vanilla 2 July 13, 2007 18:01


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.