Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 17, 2022, 01:16   #1
Skyknight
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 13
Skyknight is on a distinguished road
Playing with new class titles for the game

It rather helps that the titles didn't change much from D&D 1e. >>;;; I also wanted to avoid using masculine titles for anyone (like me) who'd rather imagine the player-character to be female. As well as give the titles a little more jazz...with a little help from scouring the various class titles in Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, and ArcheAge. This is what I've come up with...

WARRIOR
--Mercenary
--Soldier
--Commando
--Veteran
--Armsmaster (it's not like the class favors swords to begin with...)
--Myrmidon
--Commando
--Champion
--General (out of place?)
--Hero

MAGE
--Magician
--Invoker
--Evoker
--Enchanter
--Exponent (as in someone who expounds--in this case, ideas about magic)
--Sage
--Arcanist
--Thaumaturge
--Sorcerer
--Magus

DRUID
--Scion (it means both "heir"--like heir to druidic teachings, hopefully--and "branch")
--Animist
--Soothsayer
--Elementalist
--Warden
--Shaman
--Mystic
--Geomancer
--Stormwielder
--Mystagogue (someone who teaches about mystical ideas)

PRIEST
--Novitiate
--Acolyte
--Diviner (mostly for the etymology)
--Priest
--Oracle
--Templar (the original etymology/meaning is temple-er--someone who cares for a temple)
--Exorcist
--Ritualist
--Prophet
--Hierophant (one who teaches about rituals. Similar to "mystagogue", but I felt the mystic/sacred distinction merited a divide.)

NECROMANCER (Who doesn't do much divination with--actual necromancer--or weaponizing of--necrourge--the dead, oddly. Rename to Warlock?)
--Initiate
--Defiler
--Warlock
--Tombcaller (I know, I know, the previous parenthesis speaks otherwise...)
--Spellbinder
--Oppressor
--Conjurer
--Doombringer
--Nightbearer
--Archon (with an eye to its use in Gnosticism. The archons--or rather, archontes theoi/ruling gods--were the animalistic and cruel true creators of the physical/hylic world, as opposed to the original, virtuous gods, the aeons of the Pleroma.)

PALADIN
--Squire
--Protector
--Defender
--Sentinel
--Knight
--Warder
--Guardian
--Avenger
--Paladin
--Justiciar

ROGUE
--Cutpurse
--Varlet (should these first two be swapped?)
--Thief
--Ransacker
--Burglar
--Infiltrator
--Rogue
--Trickster
--Darkrunner
--Nightcloak

RANGER
--Archer
--Strider
--Scout
--Outrider
--Harbinger (same etymology as "harbor", actually; a scout specially tasked with finding lodging for other soldiers)
--Tracker
--Hunter
--Explorer
--Ranger
--Ranger Knight (I wish I had found a better alternative...)

BLACKGUARD
--Bravo
--Reaver
--Enforcer
--Slayer
--Brigand
--Berserker
--Marauder
--Black Knight
--Shadow Knight
--Conqueror

Thoughts on whether they're good/justified for the game?
Skyknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17, 2022, 06:49   #2
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 654
ewert is on a distinguished road
Don't really care, but my 2 cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyknight View Post
WARRIOR
--Mercenary
--Soldier
--Commando
--Veteran
--Armsmaster (it's not like the class favors swords to begin with...)
--Myrmidon
--Commando
--Champion
--General (out of place?)
--Hero
Commando doesn't fit (rangerish) and also it is there twice. Maybe swap soldier and mercenary IMHO. Maybe Champion, Hero, Legend could be the last ones. Take out general. Still missing replacements for the two commandos.
Quote:
MAGE
--Magician
--Invoker
--Evoker
--Enchanter
--Exponent (as in someone who expounds--in this case, ideas about magic)
--Sage
--Arcanist
--Thaumaturge
--Sorcerer
--Magus
Novice? Neophyte? Magician is already too bad-ass a name for level 1. Exponent nah, doesn't transtlate well. Sage should be higher, like 2nd highest maybe. Evoker higher than Enchanter.
Quote:
DRUID
--Scion (it means both "heir"--like heir to druidic teachings, hopefully--and "branch")
--Animist
--Soothsayer
--Elementalist
--Warden
--Shaman
--Mystic
--Geomancer
--Stormwielder
--Mystagogue (someone who teaches about mystical ideas)
Scion should be much higher, it is a sole top person of a branch, not the starter druid. Elementalist between warden/shaman. Druids are not mystics their are naturalistic, so need a new one. Archdruid is the lame ass clutch replacement, like Magus is the head of magic.
Quote:
PRIEST
--Novitiate
--Acolyte
--Diviner (mostly for the etymology)
--Priest
--Oracle
--Templar (the original etymology/meaning is temple-er--someone who cares for a temple)
--Exorcist
--Ritualist
--Prophet
--Hierophant (one who teaches about rituals. Similar to "mystagogue", but I felt the mystic/sacred distinction merited a divide.)
Templars are associated usually with fighting and thus more paladin to me. Otherwise maybe Ritualist lower than Exorcist. But cant say much otherwise.
Quote:
NECROMANCER (Who doesn't do much divination with--actual necromancer--or weaponizing of--necrourge--the dead, oddly. Rename to Warlock?)
--Initiate
--Defiler
--Warlock
--Tombcaller (I know, I know, the previous parenthesis speaks otherwise...)
--Spellbinder
--Oppressor
--Conjurer
--Doombringer
--Nightbearer
--Archon (with an eye to its use in Gnosticism. The archons--or rather, archontes theoi/ruling gods--were the animalistic and cruel true creators of the physical/hylic world, as opposed to the original, virtuous gods, the aeons of the Pleroma.)
Initiate just doesn't say necromancer to me at all. Cultist? Warlock higher. Conjurer is a magic dude not necro. Archon I think most people would definitely find the aspects of good tied to the word and I would not go for it. Nightbearer is meh. Doombringer is a blackguard to me. This is tricky and definitely needs much revisions to me.
Quote:
PALADIN
--Squire
--Protector
--Defender
--Sentinel
--Knight
--Warder
--Guardian
--Avenger
--Paladin
--Justiciar
Order all whacked out. Like, Knight is a basic one and all the "named" starting from Protector to Guardian are just "named" Knights IMHO. So maybe like Squire, Knight, Warder, Protector, Defender, Guardian, Sentinel. So it is like order of strenght of "protecting" in the naming, with the more pro-active forms being more badass. Sentinel protects by seeking out the threats far and wide, Guardian nearby, Defender can Defend a point/person, Protector tries to, Warder tries to ward of evil ... The top three are ... hard to say what order they should be in. Personally I would say Justiciar (declare evil), Avenger (avenge evil) and Paladin (the ultimate virtue).
Quote:
ROGUE
--Cutpurse
--Varlet (should these first two be swapped?)
--Thief
--Ransacker
--Burglar
--Infiltrator
--Rogue
--Trickster
--Darkrunner
--Nightcloak
Varlet is also used for "paladinish" stuff by its other meaning, I would use Rascal as the first instead. Cutpurse is more daring than a thief, so thief 2nd cutpurse 3rd. Rogue before Infiltrator. Two last are meh.
Quote:
RANGER
--Archer
--Strider
--Scout
--Outrider
--Harbinger (same etymology as "harbor", actually; a scout specially tasked with finding lodging for other soldiers)
--Tracker
--Hunter
--Explorer
--Ranger
--Ranger Knight (I wish I had found a better alternative...)
Commando fits here. Order is all whacked out. Harbinger connotations (not the one you mentioned), nope doesn't do it for me. I think would help if you planned all of the different classes with a mindmap first, and at least 3 connotations overall. So for Ranger it would be Archer/Woodsman/Ranger, and then you divide the progression to words meaning the different archetypes of differing powers. So like Archer, Outrider, Scout into Tracker, Hunter, Explorer, Strider and then combining to final outcomes of Rangerish stuff encompassing both the abilities of archery and woodscraft.

Similar idea should be used for the other classes. "Is this name encompassing x, strength y?" while filling out the progression.
Quote:
BLACKGUARD
--Bravo
--Reaver
--Enforcer
--Slayer
--Brigand
--Berserker
--Marauder
--Black Knight
--Shadow Knight
--Conqueror

Thoughts on whether they're good/justified for the game?
Bravo has no evil connotations to me, you bigot! Just joking on the bigot part, not on the evil part. Okay so again, think of Evil or definitely not good melee/Uncontrolled fighting/Blackguard magic. So Enforcer, Brigand, Reaver, Slayer, Marauder, Berserker, Black Knight, Shadow Knight ... and something else than Conqueror for the end IMHO ...

My 3 cents (was more than 2).
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17, 2022, 17:09   #3
Skyknight
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 13
Skyknight is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewert View Post
Commando doesn't fit (rangerish) and also it is there twice. Maybe swap soldier and mercenary IMHO. Maybe Champion, Hero, Legend could be the last ones. Take out general. Still missing replacements for the two commandos.
Granted Commando was in the Warrior titles already; that's probably how I missed the repeat while trying to come up with a proper cadence. Yet Commando doesn't feel like an intrinsic "wild" fighter to me. I'm also not sure I want "legend" to have an only-warriors-deserve-to-be-known-this-way patina. >>;

Quote:
Novice? Neophyte? Magician is already too bad-ass a name for level 1.
Well, I had "Magus" (the original Persian term) right at the end. It did strike me as a bit funny at first that I had two very similar titles at opposite ends of the list, to be fair. But "Magician" by itself doesn't strike me as particularly majestic by itself. Probably association with stage magicians. But probably Neophyte instead.

Quote:
Scion should be much higher, it is a sole top person of a branch, not the starter druid. Elementalist between warden/shaman. Druids are not mystics their are naturalistic, so need a new one. Archdruid is the lame ass clutch replacement, like Magus is the head of magic.
I'll admit Scion hit me for a new druid for the second definition I found at dictionary.com: "a shoot or twig, especially one cut for grafting or planting; a cutting". A new branch for the druidic "tree", as it were. (The first one was just "descendant".) Association with mysticism is probably courtesy SAngband's titles (e.g. Mystic Knight when you have enough combined levels in nature magic and battle skills).

Quote:
Initiate just doesn't say necromancer to me at all. Cultist? Warlock higher. Conjurer is a magic dude not necro. Archon I think most people would definitely find the aspects of good tied to the word and I would not go for it. Nightbearer is meh. Doombringer is a blackguard to me. This is tricky and definitely needs much revisions to me.
Have to start the path of malice somewhere. "Initiate" is meant to be deceivingly innocuous. "Conjurer", meanwhile, actually refers to someone who binds spirits (demonic included) to their will; the root term is the Latin conjūrāre, essentially meaning to bind two entities together in an oath. While "exorcist" has much the same meaning (the Hellenic exorkÝzein this time, even though I wonder if the "ex" means abolishing an oath), they seem to be considered antonymic. (Despite a few grimoires which refer to the conjurer as an exorcist.) Not Cultist, though; I don't think Necromancers/Warlocks worship anyone.

Quote:
Order all whacked out. Like, Knight is a basic one and all the "named" starting from Protector to Guardian are just "named" Knights IMHO. So maybe like Squire, Knight, Warder, Protector, Defender, Guardian, Sentinel. So it is like order of strenght of "protecting" in the naming, with the more pro-active forms being more badass. Sentinel protects by seeking out the threats far and wide, Guardian nearby, Defender can Defend a point/person, Protector tries to, Warder tries to ward of evil ... The top three are ... hard to say what order they should be in. Personally I would say Justiciar (declare evil), Avenger (avenge evil) and Paladin (the ultimate virtue).
There was enough dead reckoning on my part for the order. Paladin and Justiciar are at the top because they're actually both high government titles--Paladin is Frankish (from the Latin palātīnus), Justiciar English. I got the impression that you only ever have one Justiciar at a time, as opposed to Charlemagne's twelve Paladins, so Justiciar got a bit higher.

Quote:
Commando fits here. Order is all whacked out. Harbinger connotations (not the one you mentioned), nope doesn't do it for me. I think would help if you planned all of the different classes with a mindmap first, and at least 3 connotations overall. So for Ranger it would be Archer/Woodsman/Ranger, and then you divide the progression to words meaning the different archetypes of differing powers. So like Archer, Outrider, Scout into Tracker, Hunter, Explorer, Strider and then combining to final outcomes of Rangerish stuff encompassing both the abilities of archery and woodscraft.
I'll admit I was uncertain about Harbinger for being not quite the right sort of scout (not particularly combat-oriented, now that I think about it), although modern connotations sound better fit by just Herald or such.

Quote:
Similar idea should be used for the other classes. "Is this name encompassing x, strength y?" while filling out the progression.
That's what I was trying to do, actually...Too much emphasis on original etymology?

Quote:
Bravo has no evil connotations to me, you bigot! Just joking on the bigot part, not on the evil part. Okay so again, think of Evil or definitely not good melee/Uncontrolled fighting/Blackguard magic. So Enforcer, Brigand, Reaver, Slayer, Marauder, Berserker, Black Knight, Shadow Knight ... and something else than Conqueror for the end IMHO ...
Ha, Conqueror is as far from "good" as it gets for me. As for Bravo, dictionary.com strikes again: "A daring bandit, assassin, or murderer, especially one hired to steal or murder for another". And amusingly because I didn't know it the first time, it turns out that "brave" comes from the Latin barbarus--"barbarian".
Skyknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18, 2022, 06:13   #4
Djabanete
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
Where might one find the current V class titles, for comparison?

D&D titles here:
https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/w...l_D.26D_Titles

>>> Scion should be much higher, it is a sole top person of a branch
That doesn't match any definition I've heard of.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scion

Last edited by Djabanete; April 18, 2022 at 08:16.
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18, 2022, 06:51   #5
Saru
Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 42
Saru is on a distinguished road
[Angband]\lib\gamedata\class.txt

If I am not mistaken. Search for "title:" (without quotes) in the file.
__________________
Clearing levels one spell at a time.
Saru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19, 2022, 09:42   #6
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 654
ewert is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyknight View Post
Granted Commando was in the Warrior titles already; that's probably how I missed the repeat while trying to come up with a proper cadence. Yet Commando doesn't feel like an intrinsic "wild" fighter to me. I'm also not sure I want "legend" to have an only-warriors-deserve-to-be-known-this-way patina. >>;
My thought on the commando is more about the subterfuge/infiltration aspect which doesn't fit into the warrior and fits better into ranger. Yeah I have no good answer for the top title...
Quote:
Well, I had "Magus" (the original Persian term) right at the end. It did strike me as a bit funny at first that I had two very similar titles at opposite ends of the list, to be fair. But "Magician" by itself doesn't strike me as particularly majestic by itself. Probably association with stage magicians. But probably Neophyte instead.
To me it is just that magician is already someone competent with basic magic. IE. not a neophyte learning basic stuff.
Quote:
I'll admit Scion hit me for a new druid for the second definition I found at dictionary.com: "a shoot or twig, especially one cut for grafting or planting; a cutting". A new branch for the druidic "tree", as it were. (The first one was just "descendant".) Association with mysticism is probably courtesy SAngband's titles (e.g. Mystic Knight when you have enough combined levels in nature magic and battle skills).
Ah, alternative meaning, I was thinking more in the lines of familial heir meaning of the word. As I said, I was just throwing my 2 cents on how they felt to me as words, I did not research the words that much. This version of scion would sound good as a starter, but is this meaning the one most people know of or the heir of a family line (which is a singular position)? Works with your meaning definitely.
Quote:
Have to start the path of malice somewhere. "Initiate" is meant to be deceivingly innocuous. "Conjurer", meanwhile, actually refers to someone who binds spirits (demonic included) to their will; the root term is the Latin conjūrāre, essentially meaning to bind two entities together in an oath. While "exorcist" has much the same meaning (the Hellenic exorkÝzein this time, even though I wonder if the "ex" means abolishing an oath), they seem to be considered antonymic. (Despite a few grimoires which refer to the conjurer as an exorcist.) Not Cultist, though; I don't think Necromancers/Warlocks worship anyone.
Hmm the connotation with conjurer to me is more someone who conjures things up out of nothing (magician), which I think is the more commonplace meaning understood nowadays with D&D influence. Do you want archaic or modern parlance understood titles?

To me being able to make something non-exist is stronger than making it exist (as things tend to try to remain existent) thus exorcist is a stronger one.

What is the mythology of necromancy in Tolkien lore, I am not sure. Was the Shadows of War LOTR game necromancer in anyway lore accurate? Definitely cultish system that one.
Quote:
There was enough dead reckoning on my part for the order. Paladin and Justiciar are at the top because they're actually both high government titles--Paladin is Frankish (from the Latin palātīnus), Justiciar English. I got the impression that you only ever have one Justiciar at a time, as opposed to Charlemagne's twelve Paladins, so Justiciar got a bit higher.
Hmm. To me it is more about law vs virtue in their order. Or heck, have Paragon as the final title?
Quote:
That's what I was trying to do, actually...Too much emphasis on original etymology?
Probably, old framing vs. modern connotations thing I reckon. Do you want it accessible or archaic ... I would vote for accessible.
Quote:
Ha, Conqueror is as far from "good" as it gets for me. As for Bravo, dictionary.com strikes again: "A daring bandit, assassin, or murderer, especially one hired to steal or murder for another". And amusingly because I didn't know it the first time, it turns out that "brave" comes from the Latin barbarus--"barbarian".
Yeah I noticed today driving home that I mixed the two words into one, my bad. Don't ask why a random post on the internet pops in my head a day later.

Conqueror is to me mostly a descriptive neutral term of actions done rather than defining the person as evil. There are a lot of words that have the evil connotation and rulership, ie. tyrant. It just doesn't do it to me for blackguard, they are not by definition generals/rulers in my head.
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20, 2022, 20:32   #7
Djabanete
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyknight View Post
I also wanted to avoid using masculine titles for anyone (like me) who'd rather imagine the player-character to be female.
This is actually a tricky assignment. The expression of gender in language is truly complicated. I tried my hand at my own solution to your assignment and ended up with all sorts of questions, like:

Is Priest a masculine title because Priestess is also a word? (Maybe it's gender-neutral, since in modern-day organized religions that allow women to be priests, I believe the term priest is used in all cases.)

Are Enchanter and Sorceror masculine titles because Enchantress and Sorceress are words?

Is Warlord a masculine title because it includes -lord? Is Guildmaster a masculine title because it includes -master? Is Armsmaster a masculine title because it includes -master? At my martial arts school, everyone over a certain rank is called a Master, regardless of their gender. Maybe Master is gender-neutral?

Is Wizard a masculine title? It certainly makes me think of a man. Specifically, Gandalf. But coward and sluggard are gender-neutral, and they're formed the same way.

The fully woke option might be to allow players to select between (A) gender-neutral titles, (B) feminine titles, and (C) masculine titles. Lists A, B, and C would have a good deal of overlap. Things like Priest, Sorceror, and Enchanter might go in lists A and C, while Priestess, Sorceress, and Enchantress would populate list B. Warlord would exist only in list C, while War Leader would be its replacement in lists A and B. I'd still be unsure about Wizard. Unlike J.K. Rowling, I don't think Witch is an equivalent feminine title if one takes Wizard as masculine.

Of course, one could avoid every term that raises the is-this-masculine question and just choose things that are 100% gender-neutral, but it's hard to populate a rich list of Priest/Necro/Druid/Mage titles while avoiding mainstays like Priest, Wizard, Enchanter, Sorceror. You could make the lists, but they'd be shorter. (You could also go all-in on made-up words like Spellweaver or whatever, but I've never been partial to the words that sound too much like a game designer's thesaurus had run dry).

Last edited by Djabanete; April 20, 2022 at 20:44.
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20, 2022, 23:21   #8
Ingwe Ingweron
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 2,117
Ingwe Ingweron is on a distinguished road
Myrmidon seems out of place as it is Greek. Is @ a soldier under command of Achilles?

What is a Thaumaturge?
__________________
“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Ingwe Ingweron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 21, 2022, 01:13   #9
Djabanete
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
According to MW,
Thaumaturge = Thaumaturgist = Worker of miracles / Magician
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thaumaturge
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 21, 2022, 10:12   #10
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 654
ewert is on a distinguished road
Honestly by this point I would be fine with calling it a level 1 Paladin ...

*eyeroll*

But to each their own strokes.
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suppress scroll titles once identified? eastwind Vanilla 24 December 25, 2019 18:21
Just checking - starting a new game won't affect a saved game with another char? Petoften Vanilla 1 July 11, 2018 10:15
Sil : Playing this game for a couple of days, feeling frustrated, looking for advice Ripplez Sil 10 June 8, 2013 23:40
Different character class, different game. Fendell Orcbane Vanilla 5 September 16, 2010 18:54
@ shouldn't sense scrolls titles when blind fph Vanilla 10 May 7, 2010 21:49


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.