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Old March 23, 2017, 09:36   #41
Pete Mack
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3. We leave it more or less unchanged, where resists are 'useful but not reliable', with non-random ego resists (light, dark) somewhat more powerful. Note that this list used to include sound and confusion, when they were elemental resists on crowns of serenity.

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Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
I see 2 options that make sense:

1) Remove high resists. The attacks are weird, so we can't reduce damage from them. We can keep things that prevent side effects. Cap them to a reasonable damage level.

2) We make high resists more easily calculable, more standard.

2a) We make ALL resists the same and reduce maximum damage caps for the standard 5.

If we make them more easily calculable, with a resist being 40% and a stacking resist being another 40%, then everything becomes much easier to understand.
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Old March 23, 2017, 13:26   #42
Carnivean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
3. We leave it more or less unchanged, where resists are 'useful but not reliable', with non-random ego resists (light, dark) somewhat more powerful. Note that this list used to include sound and confusion, when they were elemental resists on crowns of serenity.
Didn't make the list because it doesn't make sense.

Why would the rules for high resists be so arbitrary, obtuse and worthless when the rules for the normal resists are straightforward? How can you possible sell anyone on the idea that although the resists that you've seen so far offer significant reductions in damage these other, new to you, resists are barely going to make a difference?

You're arguing from nostalgia not from a rational position, at least that I can see so far.
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Old March 23, 2017, 14:34   #43
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Yeah it's certainly a step in the right direction, BUT, it's hard to calculate. If a dragon is 5 spaces away how much damage will the breath be? I don't know. The game currently doesn't tell you (unless this has changed). And getting that info to the player in a simple manner seems very difficult.
Looking at the interface, there's a lot of information that strikes me as totally useless on a turn to turn basis, e.g. current stats, class and race, title. The map is also overly large in the horizontal. It is quite possible to put in an alternate HUD that gives some detail on monsters in line of sight.
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Old March 23, 2017, 14:45   #44
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Originally Posted by gameplay appreciator View Post
Looking at the interface, there's a lot of information that strikes me as totally useless on a turn to turn basis, e.g. current stats, class and race, title. The map is also overly large in the horizontal. It is quite possible to put in an alternate HUD that gives some detail on monsters in line of sight.
Off the topic of this thread, but are you aware that you can open more windows and change what they display? There is already a current target window that shows the recall information for the current target and a monster list.
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Old March 23, 2017, 15:25   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Off the topic of this thread, but are you aware that you can open more windows and change what they display? There is already a current target window that shows the recall information for the current target and a monster list.
They're right, though -- there's a lot of info on the sidebar that doesn't need to be displayed all the time. That could be removed to make room for other information. Just because the player can add extra windows doesn't mean we should assume they are, or be wasteful of window space.

One of the things I fiddled with in Pyrel was displaying your current resists in the sidebar. I condensed each element name down to 2 characters and then showed the name in a dark color if you didn't have it, and in a brighter, element-appropriate color (e.g. green for poison, lavender for nexus) if you did. If I recall correctly, you could fit all the resists, plus FA, SI, and a few others, into 4-5 rows that way. If we changed it to be 5 characters per element (2-char abbreviation, 2-char resistance percentage, and a space to make the columns more legible) then you'd probably need 10-12 rows, which still ought to be doable if we remove some of the more irrelevant info from the current sidebar.
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Old March 23, 2017, 15:48   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
They're right, though -- there's a lot of info on the sidebar that doesn't need to be displayed all the time. That could be removed to make room for other information. Just because the player can add extra windows doesn't mean we should assume they are, or be wasteful of window space.
If you cut the IMO wholly unnecessary race/class/title lines, you've got nine lines to play with at the minimum screen size. (Also, hi, I am that weirdo who still plays Angband in a single window at the minimum possible size! I play during downtime while I'm working and switch between windows a lot, so it's more convenient that way.)

This was my previous suggestion for a sidebar resistance display:

Code:
             
 rAcid  ---- 
 rElec  x1/3 
 rFire  x1/9 
 rCold  **** 
             
 P L D So Sh 
  Nx Nt C D  
             
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Old March 23, 2017, 16:15   #47
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Yeah, the Pyrel display wasn't dissimilar to the second half of your example. But if we're to unify basic and high resist behaviors, then IMO they should all display the information that's displayed in the top half, i.e. how much damage is reduced by. Of course there's not enough space to use the format you proposed for every element, so it'd have to be something more like this (apologies for being uncolored, but I'm trying to represent the same state as in your example):
Code:
Ac-- Ey33
Fr11 Cd0!
Pn-- Nx33
Lt33 Dk--
So33 Sh--
Cs-- Ds33
Nt33
In other words, the numbers indicate the percentage damage you take from the element, with -- meaning no resistance.

That's 7 rows and 9 columns per row. Your example is 11 columns wide, so I guess we could actually use 3-letter element names. Acd/Elc/Fir/Cld/Psn/Lit/Drk/Snd/Shd/Nxs/Ntr/Chs/Dst?
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Old March 23, 2017, 18:02   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Off the topic of this thread, but are you aware that you can open more windows and change what they display? There is already a current target window that shows the recall information for the current target and a monster list.
I am aware of these windows and options surrounding them, but I am not a big believer in that design. I think a sidebar HUD that allows you to rotate through concise listings of pertinent information with a keystroke would be far better.

In any case, I am not aware of any place the game tells you how much damage a breath weapon can do at a given range, which would be a nice addition to monster recall listings or any HUD that might appear in the future.
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Old March 23, 2017, 18:38   #49
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Could you explain this a bit further? Making the equipment minigame more interesting I can understand, but why is it less believable if all elements have the same damage cap? Why should chaos necessarily be more destructive than light (where there's no real limit on how many photons you can shove at something), or nether more destructive than sound (where, again, there's no limit on how loud something can be)? I'm not trying to do an "appeal to reality" here, just saying that just because we're used to some elements being "weenie elements" that are never going to be relevant damage-wise, doesn't mean that that's automatically more plausible than them all sharing the same cap.
My intuition across a range of fantasy games and fiction, is that some elements sound very physically destructive (such as fire, chaos or nether), while others sound more focused on side effects than on sheer destructive force (such as sound, dark or disenchantment).

YMMV

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Old March 23, 2017, 18:51   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
My intuition across a range of fantasy games and fiction, is that some elements sound very physically destructive (such as fire, chaos or nether), while others sound more focused on side effects than on sheer destructive force (such as sound, dark or disenchantment).

YMMV

A.
That sort of makes sense to me for the ball spells but breathe damage in angband is hp based. For high end sound damage it's a massive gold dragon breathing raw sound at you. I'd picture that as a fairly physically destructive force.
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