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Old August 8, 2011, 02:44   #71
Gockel
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Hope i'm not repeating what is long known. i'm not even completely sure it's a bug. i read a scroll of summon undead and nothing happened. thing is i'm only 99% sure i had see invisible that moment. so i guess it might be possible that something invisible was summoned and disappeared immediately... just thought i'd mention it.
thanks for the nice game btw! i shouldn't be playing as my final university exams are coming up, but oh well... unfortunately the game didn't get worse at all with the new version... addictive as hell.

oh, and one more thing, is it intentional that with roguelike commands pressing ctrl-j (which so far has been the "action command" like dig, open, attack etc,) now brings up this strange action dialogue? can i turn this off somehow?
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Old August 8, 2011, 05:26   #72
myshkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
My suggestion at this point would be abandoning PDF as well and just living with HTML=>text.
I don't have a big problem with this, but it does sound as if a number of people are quite fond of the PDF manual. Does anyone have a really strong objection to shipping HTML in lieu of PDF?


Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
Oh, I must've missed his suggestion. I've checked it out quickly, it seems another good alternative. Only question, how is one supposed to obtain word wrap at the end of the screen? This seems like a pain to do manually when editing the help files.
Sorry, the suggestion was an out-of-band one. I'm not sure what you mean by word wrap...are you talking about editing the source rst files? I would expect that you can set your text editor to wrap at whatever column you like (I'd suggest 75).
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Old August 8, 2011, 08:47   #73
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by fph View Post
Oh. But if I am not missing anything, those are now displayed in the race/class selection screen in the new nightlies, without need to look in the help.
Not the same thing, I like to see race and class bonuses together so that I don't need to go and check every one of those individually. Those are way easier to check from "ability tables" -section in help.
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Old August 8, 2011, 09:54   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myshkin View Post
I don't have a big problem with this, but it does sound as if a number of people are quite fond of the PDF manual. Does anyone have a really strong objection to shipping HTML in lieu of PDF?
I think I do, but can't immediately provide compelling reasons why. A PDF help file has been a goal for several years, and it seems a shame to abandon it the version after we finally created it. But perhaps HTML will do everything we want and more.
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Old August 8, 2011, 09:56   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gockel View Post
Hope i'm not repeating what is long known. i'm not even completely sure it's a bug. i read a scroll of summon undead and nothing happened. thing is i'm only 99% sure i had see invisible that moment. so i guess it might be possible that something invisible was summoned and disappeared immediately... just thought i'd mention it.
thanks for the nice game btw! i shouldn't be playing as my final university exams are coming up, but oh well... unfortunately the game didn't get worse at all with the new version... addictive as hell.

oh, and one more thing, is it intentional that with roguelike commands pressing ctrl-j (which so far has been the "action command" like dig, open, attack etc,) now brings up this strange action dialogue? can i turn this off somehow?
Hi Gockel,

I'm not sure if you realised, but your post was buried deep in a thread about help docs so might have been missed. Not to worry.

The ctrl-J thing is a known bug, which should be fixed eventually but I'm afraid there's no way to turn it off at the moment.

Summons not appearing is an old bug that we thought we'd fixed, so we are interested in seeing it reproduced. That said, there are some changes to summoning coming in the next dev version, so we'll wait until then to see if it still happens.
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Old August 8, 2011, 11:54   #76
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ok, thanks for the answer! and sorry for misposting, i guess i shouldn't post at four in the morning being half-asleep anyway.
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Old August 8, 2011, 15:34   #77
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Thanks for posting the OSX Version- seems to be working fine although I've only gotten to about 400'. Haven't played much since 3.1.2 so there's a lot of new stuff in here even at low levels.

Myshkin- I sent you a PM about this but unfortunately I don't have xcode on my old machine after all and couldn't compile on my old ppc mac.
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Old August 15, 2011, 14:57   #78
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Originally Posted by myshkin View Post
I don't have a big problem with this, but it does sound as if a number of people are quite fond of the PDF manual. Does anyone have a really strong objection to shipping HTML in lieu of PDF?
I would prefer a format that is both easy to convert to PDF and to HTML. Also HTML documentation is probably the format that I like least to use.
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Old August 17, 2011, 23:38   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJNyfalt View Post
I would prefer a format that is both easy to convert to PDF and to HTML. Also HTML documentation is probably the format that I like least to use.
What might be useful to move on from this point of discussion is someone to make a list of pros and cons of various formats?

Personally I'd be pretty happy with HTML as the base format - it's easy to put online, there are converters for PDFs (probably good enough ones), and it's approaching a universal language.
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Old August 18, 2011, 01:31   #80
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I like reStructuredText.

http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html

The basic gist is that it's a plaintext format (which is readable as text) which can be converted to HTML, PDF, whatever. I have used it before and found it to be pretty easy to create and maintain.

Here are the goals that were set when designing RST:
  1. Readable. The marked-up text must be easy to read without any prior knowledge of the markup language. It should be as easily read in raw form as in processed form.
  2. Unobtrusive. The markup that is used should be as simple and unobtrusive as possible. The simplicity of markup constructs should be roughly proportional to their frequency of use. The most common constructs, with natural and obvious markup, should be the simplest and most unobtrusive. Less common constructs, for which there is no natural or obvious markup, should be distinctive.
  3. Unambiguous. The rules for markup must not be open for interpretation. For any given input, there should be one and only one possible output (including error output).
  4. Unsurprising. Markup constructs should not cause unexpected output upon processing. As a fallback, there must be a way to prevent unwanted markup processing when a markup construct is used in a non-markup context (for example, when documenting the markup syntax itself).
  5. Intuitive. Markup should be as obvious and easily remembered as possible, for the author as well as for the reader. Constructs should take their cues from such naturally occurring sources as plaintext email messages, newsgroup postings, and text documentation such as README.txt files.
  6. Easy. It should be easy to mark up text using any ordinary text editor.
  7. Scalable. The markup should be applicable regardless of the length of the text.
  8. Powerful. The markup should provide enough constructs to produce a reasonably rich structured document.
  9. Language-neutral. The markup should apply to multiple natural (as well as artificial) languages, not only English.
  10. Extensible. The markup should provide a simple syntax and interface for adding more complex general markup, and custom markup.
  11. Output-format-neutral. The markup will be appropriate for processing to multiple output formats, and will not be biased toward any particular format.

I can't say I'm at all excited about maintaining HTML, and I doubt most other people are as well. In my opinion, RST is good because it means people can edit documents without even thinking about markup/formatting/layout/etc and have it mostly work well.
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