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Old June 27, 2021, 01:37   #11
Pete Mack
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Time attacks are one of the good things about Blackguard. The only important stat actually affected is Dexterity. CON, STR, INT are immediately recovered.
Plus nearly every time breather is dead in one turn.
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Old June 27, 2021, 02:56   #12
ewert
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Hmm, personally, I feel the too much junk approach is not the way for the vanilla game to go. There has been years and years of fixing that issue. Randarts make random things exciting. Heck, I often go wooooah thats so cool, even though the item in question is of no use for my character.

In short, I feel the class based approach to changing end-game is for variants, not for the vanilla game. I would hate to get spell gluttony myself. I love the playstyle of the vanilla game of that these are the classes, now go get gear. As a variant, go for it.

Hounds were tuned back a long time ago, and lets face it they are animals and dumb and so easy to trick into just walking into slaughter. Even time ones. I feel they are in a good spot, since some hate em, some (at least me) look into them as ez xp if your dmg is high enough, they can cause annoyance but outside some rare events are rarely instakills, but they can be 'oh crap oh crap I need to bail NOW'. Also their spacing in DLVLs seems pretty spot on at the moment.

I have been mulling on the ground vs mob loot issue, especially with vaults. At the moment I am thinking some delineation could be best, such as consumables are mostly ground, and gear is mostly carried. So for vaults, spawned gear would actually be put on mobs in the vault (algorithm tbd). This would also make rogues steal very unique as they could snag that loot and bail.

Yes the game heavily favours not killing everything. However, IMHO, it is too easy to get by killing NOTHING. After !xp DLVLs, in theory you can only kill 2 more mobs to beat the game. Each to their own and all, just my opinion.

For me, the game until stats/speed is all about taking choice tough fights and clearing average mobs, and that's where it is so fun. Post dive (just read scrolls to drop straight from 40 to 90 yesterday on my current char ...), it is just scouring the floors, feeling like a janitor sometimes.
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Old June 27, 2021, 03:00   #13
NCountr
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Time attacks are one of the good things about Blackguard. ... Plus nearly every time breather is dead in one turn.
Time Attacks are just mundane. Indefensible, no "save" possible. The Mods don't even attempt to give the player a chance to parry them.

◦ You stop using the Lantern of True Sight (13215 turns) and now hold the Mirror of Reflection (??).
◦ It breathes Time. Your Mirror of Reflection deflects the attack. It howls in pain.

...but, no, we're stuck with a Just Take It mentality from the Game Designers at this point.

Boring as heck. If I don't have Banish, I leave the level as soon as possible.
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Old June 27, 2021, 03:11   #14
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And this is precisely what makes it *completely* different from being gear-based. If you're allowed to unlearn spells to make room for new ones, then sure, I'm ok with being able to pick spells. But so long as you're stuck with spells forever, you're not just littering the ground with a few newb traps here or there, you're creating a newb minefield. Some people enjoy navigating those. I don't.

If a player makes a critical mistake, they should find out *real* fast. They shouldn't find out seventy floors later when they find Mana Storm only to realize they can't learn it because they were inexperienced enough to think Electric Arch was a good idea.
Do you think a newbie is going to go straight through and kill off Morgoth on the first go? Even given all the experience I've had through the years with Rogue and Angband, it still took me a few iterations to understand the new nuances with 4.x versus 3.x.

Any modification will take some time to grasp or comprehend. I think expanding options to players will only make the game richer. Take your chess board, expand it by 2 squares and 4 more pieces. Make it 10x10. Boom, you've enriched the game. Too complex? Oh, then take the original, vanilla 8x8 board, but just swap the starting positions of the back 8 pieces. (It's called Chess 960, invention credited to Bobby Fischer, also called Fischer-Random Chess.)

There are so many ways to modify and expand the game, without penalizing those who prefer to play with their knights more than their bishops. *cough* *cough* And, end-games in chess, to keep the analogy going, are also about Managing the win. Keeping your extra-pawn advantage to the end to win the game (avoiding potential blunders along the way). Sure, the opening and middle games are filled with traps and keen tactical play... . Get through to the End Game and it's the same as when you attain Max Stats and Decent Gear past 2000~2500'. It's the End Game. Turn it into a win as you see fit.
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Old June 27, 2021, 03:11   #15
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...but, no, we're stuck with a Just Take It mentality from the Game Designers at this point.
Given that I am essentially the Game Designer at this point (although I would argue new stuff gets pretty thoroughly aired first), I take this kind of personally.

I don't know how much notice you've taken of the years of broad ranging discussions of whether and how the game should change, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of it. By all means make your own variant. Claim it's actually the real Angband if you like. But in my opinion venting repeatedly against an unpaid volunteer like they're The Man is ... unhelpful.
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Old June 27, 2021, 03:34   #16
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Given that I am essentially the Game Designer at this point (although I would argue new stuff gets pretty thoroughly aired first), I take this kind of personally.

I don't know how much notice you've taken of the years of broad ranging discussions of whether and how the game should change, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of it. By all means make your own variant. Claim it's actually the real Angband if you like. But in my opinion venting repeatedly against an unpaid volunteer like they're The Man is ... unhelpful.
I may have come across as a bit salty, but that's how much I hate Time Attacks, Hounds, and Vortices. They were added in way before you became administrator of this fine program---I get that. But, you're also the person who now carries the burden of Vanilla. I also, if you have noticed, have come with a series of suggestions on how to improve the game going forward (not that I have any significant gripes about how the game is structured). I think the End Game is rather fine for what it is now; as I mentioned in another post, I liken it to the end game in chess. End Games in chess are also about managing the win (or eeking out a draw if one is on the losing side of material). You shouldn't be penalizing players or presuming the game is finished if a certain situation arises. Just because you have an extra Queen on the chess board doesn't mean you are guaranteed a win in chess. You still have to win the game to get the full credit.
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Old June 27, 2021, 04:13   #17
Pete Mack
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BTW, vortices, hounds, time attacks are as nothing compared to old style Nexus. Without resistance, even the weakest breath could destroy your game. Temporary stat loss is nothing compared with getting CON swapped with CHR.
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Old June 27, 2021, 04:21   #18
ewert
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TBH, personally, I don't get the hate against v's and Z's... Z's were bad in the days of yore, now they are just another type of obstacle to overcome, neither trivial nor too harsh. v's are just a "doh" to be honest, if they happen to destroy a particularly costly piece of gear, otherwise they just are ...

Anyways, just looking at mages does nothing for the end-game. Examining the end-game from the perspective of the different classes gives us clues on what could be the issue with the end-game though (risk vs reward is the distilled form of the question).
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Old June 27, 2021, 05:35   #19
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TBH, personally, I don't get the hate against v's and Z's... Z's were bad in the days of yore, now they are just another type of obstacle to overcome, neither trivial nor too harsh. v's are just a "doh" to be honest, if they happen to destroy a particularly costly piece of gear, otherwise they just are ...
The problem is tri-fold.

a.) The v's and Z's are far, far too common.
b.) There are too many variety of them. Every color of the rainbow---why? Not even orcs have this many colors in the game. Too un-imaginative, like "Time" attacks.
c.) The game designers (yes, I realize this means Nick at the moment) depend too heavily on them to slow player progress down. And, that's all they do: eat clock. They offer little real strategy or tactic to the game otherwise.

The hounds and vortices are only antagonists to players trying to work through a level. Sure, you get the occassional 'f' prancing at you, but they are far less common and annoying as Hounds and Vortices. Z's and v's in 3.x are even more annoying.

The packs of bats are sensible in the latest versions than the hounds and vortices have ever been.
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Old June 27, 2021, 05:59   #20
archolewa
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Originally Posted by NCountr View Post
Do you think a newbie is going to go straight through and kill off Morgoth on the first go? Even given all the experience I've had through the years with Rogue and Angband, it still took me a few iterations to understand the new nuances with 4.x versus 3.x.
No, but I don't like it when your mistake is distant and non-obvious (i.e. spread your skillpoints too broadly, don't spread your skill points broadly enough, pick the wrong spell etc and so forth). Open ended character builds lead to distant, non-obvious mistakes. To say nothing of the balance problems I pointed out earlier. When the vast majority of possible builds are garbage, your players don't actually have that many more choices. It's just harder to find the right one than it is with a more static leveling scheme.
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