Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 11, 2013, 02:31   #111
DaviddesJ
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Burlingame CA
Age: 58
Posts: 254
DaviddesJ is on a distinguished road
What if I cheat and discover that the thread has Fire Immunity?
DaviddesJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 04:37   #112
Zyphyr
Adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 135
Zyphyr is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oramin View Post
Let's address one last thing - the use of language and people taking offense at it.

If a person breaks the laws regarding murder or speeding, then he or she is a "lawbreaker". Somebody who broke the Fugitive Slave Laws back in 1850's to help escaped slaves is also a "lawbreaker". That is not a moral judgment, that is a statement of fact. From a moral point of view, I hope that most of us approve of the final group of "lawbreakers".

When somebody violates the intended rules of the game (especially as enforced by the game), then he or she is a "cheat" - look it up in a dictionary. If you wish to infer moral condemnation from that, the problem is yours and not mine.
This right here makes me believe that you are not actually having the same discussion as everyone else....

You are arguing about whether or not it is currently defined as cheating (and nobody has implied that it isn't) while everyone else is arguing about if it SHOULD be defined as such.

Either that or you don't understand just how damaging your own example there is to the "but it was defined that way before, so it still needs to be" position.
Zyphyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 06:28   #113
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
and it doesn't change what playing the game is like
You are wrong in that, especially for new players. Us old folk it doesn't matter, but for someone just discovering the game it would have huge impact how he plays the game.
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 09:32   #114
Djabanete
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 564
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
You are wrong in that, especially for new players. Us old folk it doesn't matter, but for someone just discovering the game it would have huge impact how he plays the game.
At least one novice in my acquaintance, while understanding the pros and cons, has a strong preference for full monster knowledge.
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 10:12   #115
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
At least one novice in my acquaintance, while understanding the pros and cons, has a strong preference for full monster knowledge.
It makes game easier. As bad as it sounds easier is not always better.
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 14:18   #116
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
Here's another direct reference as to how one of the designers of Angband 2.4 (Sean Marsh)

Thought I'd just release the list of uniques and abilities that we have here
at Warwick. Can't guarantee that everything in this list will be completely
accurate, but it should come pretty close. It's a major spoiler so don't look
at it unless you want the game to lose some appeal.
~ Sean.
This is a great quote. In short looking at "major spoiler(s)" cause the game to "lose some appeal". I'll go out on a limb and equate "major spoiler(s)" with "complete monster memory" since complete monster memory is a far greater exploit that what is being referenced in the quote.

I suppose if you're looking for Angband to lose some appeal, then by all means proceed in bringing major spoilers out of the shadows and into the mainstream.
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 15:36   #117
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
This is a great quote. In short looking at "major spoiler(s)" cause the game to "lose some appeal". I'll go out on a limb and equate "major spoiler(s)" with "complete monster memory" since complete monster memory is a far greater exploit that what is being referenced in the quote.

I suppose if you're looking for Angband to lose some appeal, then by all means proceed in bringing major spoilers out of the shadows and into the mainstream.
That's what I think of it. Also I think there is educational purpose too: Full monster memory is not needed if you play "right". Just those few possible surprises are what you need to learn, and we should make them available from beginning. Not which monster can do them, but that they are a possibility.

Just to repeat in case no-one read them:

1) Unresisted basic four and poison can do so much damage that it can kill even maxed out char.
2) stunning can lead to knock out which is almost always deadly.
3) same with paralyzation but in lesser decree (saving throw helps).

And that's it.
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 19:57   #118
DaviddesJ
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Burlingame CA
Age: 58
Posts: 254
DaviddesJ is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
I suppose if you're looking for Angband to lose some appeal, then by all means proceed in bringing major spoilers out of the shadows and into the mainstream.
There are no "shadows". The information is in the source code and in text files that anyone can read whenever they want. Some people like that and some don't. The designer thought there was some appeal in not having the information at your fingertips, but he also understood that other people might think differently, or make different decisions in different circumstances (e.g., maybe they like playing for a while with little information, but as they get more into the game they want to find out more), so, why not give them the choice?

Today, as always, we have two kinds of people. Those who understand that different people like different things and might choose to play different ways. And those who think (and post!) that their way is the "right" way and everyone should be like them and like what they like and do what they do. But the problem is that I'm not like you. What I like is different than what you like. Is that really so hard to understand?

If you really think that people who don't like what you like shouldn't play Angband at all, then of course it makes sense not to put options into the game that other people would like and you don't. But my theory is that, when you have a game that already has a relatively niche audience, if you can expand its appeal to more people, so much the better.
DaviddesJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11, 2013, 19:59   #119
DaviddesJ
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Burlingame CA
Age: 58
Posts: 254
DaviddesJ is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
You are wrong in that, especially for new players. Us old folk it doesn't matter, but for someone just discovering the game it would have huge impact how he plays the game.
I know for a fact this is not true. I played the game in the past with a separate spoiler file, and now I've played it with full monster knowledge in the game, and it's exactly the same information so I play exactly the same way. The only effect is that it's quicker and more convenient and more fun, I just glance at the information I need instead of having to look it up. It's analogous to the difference between having information at your fingertips with Google vs. having to open the encyclopedia every time you want to look something up. You get the same information in the end, it's just a question of more convenient vs. less convenient.

There are also people who prefer to play without monster spoilers. But those people also aren't affected, because they can simply turn the option off. I think it's a great option to have because people who like having it off should do so. (Although Oramin is a strange case because he probes all of the monsters so that he can have all of the information that you don't want players to have because it would ruin the game....)
DaviddesJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12, 2013, 03:00   #120
Bodhi
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Bodhi is on a distinguished road
If the monster memory option is sufficiently hidden, is there an issue?

At this point I only use Monster Memory to check what some of the higher level monsters breathe

I've fought everything. Forcing me to check the spoilers to see if a Great Balance Wyrm breathes disenchantment or not isn't exciting
Bodhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monster Memory Question Stornor Vanilla 3 September 10, 2012 17:00
Monster Memory, take 2? buzzkill Idle chatter 1 September 8, 2012 06:32
Some thoughts on Monster Memory Tobias Vanilla 17 May 29, 2011 16:43
Monster memory TJS Vanilla 13 August 8, 2009 19:40
Files for Monster Memory? geoff_tewierik Vanilla 4 May 25, 2009 03:58


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.