Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 13, 2007, 03:57   #1
Conker
Scout
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 38
Conker is on a distinguished road
Too Much Luck - Annoying?

This might sound crazy, but... does anyone ever feel annoyed when their early game is too easy/generous?

For example, I just found a Staff of the Magi. At 50'. With my level 4 gnomish mage. Autoscum turned off, too. Amazing, of course. But... As soon as I get recharge, I'll have infinite mana, as long as I'm careful to avoid fire and acid. For the early game, where I can shoot and scoot most enemies, this is a big powerup. But I'm partly thinking 'Aw, now I don't get the fun of zapping at Smeagol hysterically with my wand of wonder as he comes close to me, hoping he'll die before my charges run out'.

Similarly, if I were to find Ringil at 1000', and I went on to do really well, all through the game (until I died to something stupid a couple hundred feet later, knowing me) I'd be thinking 'Am I only doing well because of my lucky find? Does it still count as beating the game with such an advantage?'.

It's not particularly this latest event that triggered it - a staff of the Magi isn't Bladeturner or anything - just a continuing theme I noticed. Like how if I'm rolling up something, and get a lot of low scores that I reject, then get the best scores possible, I reluctantly reroll again to merely get a 'good' start instead of a godly one.

It's stupid - I've yet to beat the game at all, after a long time spent attempting - but does anyone else ever resent their early luck or see it as something of an unfair advantage?

I guess I'm looking a gift-horse in the mouth, but a part of me can't help that wishing for slightly less awesome OOD gifts. For example, my last mage found a potion of intelligence about 200' down. Helpful, and very cool, and I didn't feel like 'Aw, no, even a MONKEY could win with that extra intelligence'.

A somewhat similar analogy, though I'm loathe to use it, can be drawn from Nethack - finding gauntlets of power on the first level wouldn't ruin your game, but a wand of wishing most likely would.
________
Vaporizer

Last edited by Conker; January 19, 2011 at 12:22.
Conker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 04:20   #2
camlost
Sangband 1.x Maintainer
 
camlost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 522
camlost is on a distinguished road
I am of the opinion that you should take what the RNG giveth, for what he giveth, he will likely taketh away.

Just curious, but have you actually beaten the game, good luck or not? If not, then gift horses are just gifts. There are actually a number of people who want to increase this sort of randomness (both for weal and woe). And I would highly doubt that you'll keep that staff, say, through stat-gain. Too many things with breaths and whatnot that it'll be destroyed eventually.
__________________
a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}
camlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 05:19   #3
Djabanete
Knight
 
Djabanete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 545
Djabanete is on a distinguished road

Your precious little level 4 gnome mage will die in the next 24 hours, staff or no staff. Serves you right for starting this thread. It will be painful, sure, but you will learn never again to question the RNG.

I place my bet on Nar the Dwarf. Any other bids?

~~

I'll answer your question though: whenever I get something really good early in the game, I fear for my character's life. One of my Entro speed-divers managed to find Thranduil (and the telepathy is pretty hot when you're speed-diving) and died 30 seconds later (quite literally) to a Basilisk. Yes, I saw it from across the screen; and yes, it was asleep when I saw it; but I still somehow managed to get myself killed by it. These things have a tendency to just work themselves out.

Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 07:32   #4
Bandobras
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 725
Bandobras is on a distinguished road
I hate it when I get big boots of speed early with a warrior. Hack and back is just sooo boring on early levels where monsters are helpless... And warriors have trouble diving due to no stairs detection and it's scary diving without FA and base, speed or not. I've never won any *band either, but I remember I've quit one very nice O warrior or palading after early boots of speed --- should be somewhere on the ladder.

That is why I'm glad speed items have pvals limited by depth in Un (I might have had a hand in that, I don't quite remember:-).
Bandobras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 09:07   #5
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
Your precious little level 4 gnome mage will die in the next 24 hours, staff or no staff. Serves you right for starting this thread. It will be painful, sure, but you will learn never again to question the RNG.

I place my bet on Nar the Dwarf. Any other bids?
It's definitely going to be a Dwarf, but my money's on Mim.
Quote:
I'll answer your question though: whenever I get something really good early in the game, I fear for my character's life. One of my Entro speed-divers managed to find Thranduil (and the telepathy is pretty hot when you're speed-diving) and died 30 seconds later (quite literally) to a Basilisk. Yes, I saw it from across the screen; and yes, it was asleep when I saw it; but I still somehow managed to get myself killed by it. These things have a tendency to just work themselves out.
I agree. I tend to have so many games where I'm struggling with nothing better than a +9,+9 weapon at 2000' that a nice early find is a refreshing change. I enjoy it while I can, and usually die soon afterwards (player ghosts, often).

CC
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 09:41   #6
Matthias
Adept
 
Matthias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 36
Posts: 201
Matthias is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Matthias
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras View Post
I hate it when I get big boots of speed early with a warrior. Hack and back is just sooo boring on early levels where monsters are helpless...
It is actually possible to not hack and back if you don't want to. With early speed especially as a warrior you do have the advantage over most monsters anyway, so there is no need for those tricks that take way too much real time.

@endless mana: Staffs can get destroyed, unless you're still playing 3.06, by casting recharge.
Matthias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 10:22   #7
Hugo
Scout
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 31
Hugo is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conker View Post
This might sound crazy, but... does anyone ever feel annoyed when their early game is too easy/generous?
Not me. Don't forget that you're not only facing wildly OOD items, but also wildly OOD monsters.

I'd say: use whatever the RNG gives you. You can always try more challenging games, e.g. by manually destroying items over 20 levels OOD, after your first win - but as long as you've never beaten the game, take what you get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conker View Post
As soon as I get recharge, I'll have infinite mana, as long as I'm careful to avoid fire and acid.
Not really. I consider the V3.0.6 change that caused a failed recharge to merely discharge the stack to be a bug. The aim was to repair the too harsh penalty of destrying an entire stack in V3.0.5; V3.0.7 fixed both the original issue and the 306 bug by destroying a single wand or staff.

When I was playing V3.0.6, I manually destroyed a single staff or wand from my stack after each failed recharge because I didn't want to exploit this bug. I advise you to do the same (or install a newer version of Angband).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conker View Post
Similarly, if I were to find Ringil at 1000', and I went on to do really well, all through the game (until I died to something stupid a couple hundred feet later, knowing me) I'd be thinking 'Am I only doing well because of my lucky find? Does it still count as beating the game with such an advantage?'.
If you really die a few hundred feet later, than your finding of Ringil is not a form of generosity of the RNG, but rather a form of cruelty. Dying at 1250' is normal and to be expected - dying at 1250' with Ringil hoewver...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conker View Post
I didn't feel like 'Aw, no, even a MONKEY could win with that extra intelligence'.
And you do feel that even a monkey could win after finding Ringil at 1000', or Magi at 50'? I'd suggest you to delay your opinion until you really have managed to win - if after that you felt it was so easy that a monkey could have done it, make your next game a challenge game as suggested above.

I predict you'll find winning hard enough even with the staff.
__________________
Best, Hugo

--
Angband spoilers - now updated for Angband 3.0.8 !!!!!
Visit http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm
--
Hugo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 15:01   #8
Seany C
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Deepest, darkest Yorkshire...
Posts: 283
Donated: $20
Seany C is on a distinguished road
I never feel guilty about outrageous, luck - what the RNG giveth, it also taketh away.

Boredom from playing one's normal playstyle with an overpowered item is more of an issue but easily rectified - if your CL10 character is overpowered for 250' then drop to 400'... or 600'... and keep dropping 'til you reach an 'interesting' depth where staying alive is a challenge. As well as keeping it interesting, you'll pick up experience quicker (assuming that you've not dropped so deep that you can't kill anything)...

The _ofMagi is very nice but not completely unbalancing - without fail-safe recharging and fire immunity, I doubt you'll have it at 2000' - just enjoy it while it lasts...

S.
Seany C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 15:12   #9
Psi
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey, UK
Age: 44
Posts: 870
Psi is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seany C View Post
I never feel guilty about outrageous, luck - what the RNG giveth, it also taketh away.

Boredom from playing one's normal playstyle with an overpowered item is more of an issue but easily rectified - if your CL10 character is overpowered for 250' then drop to 400'... or 600'... and keep dropping 'til you reach an 'interesting' depth where staying alive is a challenge. As well as keeping it interesting, you'll pick up experience quicker (assuming that you've not dropped so deep that you can't kill anything)...
I was just formulating a reply to the OP, but Seany has hit the nail on the head there. Play the game at the deepest depth where your eq (and ability) allows - life will always stay interesting then. An OOD item is just an invitation to a lower turncount.
Psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2007, 15:57   #10
Conker
Scout
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 38
Conker is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
[FONT="Courier New"]
Your precious little level 4 gnome mage will die in the next 24 hours, staff or no staff. Serves you right for starting this thread. It will be painful, sure, but you will learn never again to question the RNG.

I place my bet on Nar the Dwarf. Any other bids?

Rather harsh. As I said in my original post, it's not so much the staff, it's just the trend of getting wildly OOD items that provide a great advantage. Surely you'll acknowledge a line exists somewhere - you'd be happy finding a weapon of Westernesse at 50', sure, but would you honestly enjoy your game if you found the One Ring there? I'm not even necessarily saying a _ofMagi crosses the line, I'm just discussing the existence of it.

Someone mentioned the chance existing for wildly OOD monsters as well - but while I've found things like a source of telepathy, or a source of immunity, in the first 200 feet, I've never found a Drolem or even a mature dragon up there. Excluding vaults and summons, I never seem to run into any extremely OOD monsters. Perhaps other people have, and I've merely been lucky. Still, you can Detect Monsters/Evil away the danger these would pose, mostly.

And just because I dislike early advantages doesn't mean I'm a complete newb. No, I haven't won, but I've come close. My last three deaths were to Itaganst, (got cocky with double resist, and a high critical wounds roll took me to -1 HP), to summoned time hounds who killed me before I could even move, and to Kronos, whom I'd forgotten could breathe.

I doubt I'll die to Nar, or especially to Mim. It's possible, but I've only died to Nar once before, and never Mim. My own bet for the early-mid game would be, assuming I get past the first 500', either Uldor or Adunaphel (if she can walk through walls - I always forget how many of them can do that, I might be thinking of Ren).

Seany C and Psi, you make good points - the game is to an extent self-balancing, and I can always dive faster.

Didn't know about the changes to recharge in 3.0.7+ (haven't been won over by it yet, to be honest), but it brings up an interesting point. On consideration, perhaps it's a change for the better. But is it really a bug? Hmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo
[FONT="Courier New"]
And you do feel that even a monkey could win after finding Ringil at 1000', or Magi at 50'? I'd suggest you to delay your opinion until you really have managed to win - if after that you felt it was so easy that a monkey could have done it, make your next game a challenge game as suggested above.
The staff, no. Ringil? To an extent. I used hyperbole - obviously, a monkey couldn't win - but the next part of the game would be significantly easier. I've beaten ToME (as a human warrior, not a cheesy summoner), and once my character became awesome enough, there was no fun in whacking things that didn't have a chance. I chose my words poorly - an early OOD item like Ringil wouldn't guarantee a win, but it would for quite some time reduce the danger level to low levels. The point of my post was to say 'Does anyone ever think "too low"?'
________
buy silversurfer vaporizer

Last edited by Conker; January 19, 2011 at 12:22.
Conker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 20:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.