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Old December 14, 2010, 21:44   #31
Tiburon Silverflame
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I think what we're saying is that we need to start by being clear: what is the desired role of food in the game? What does it add, how do we want it to affect play? Then we move to the other points such as eliminating Satisfy Hunger, as a spell, as a scroll, or both; adjusting food values of potions; food rations in town; and so on. Without a goal in mind, we can't plow a path towards it.
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Old December 15, 2010, 02:06   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiburon Silverflame View Post
I think what we're saying is that we need to start by being clear: what is the desired role of food in the game? What does it add, how do we want it to affect play? Then we move to the other points such as eliminating Satisfy Hunger, as a spell, as a scroll, or both; adjusting food values of potions; food rations in town; and so on. Without a goal in mind, we can't plow a path towards it.
I propose that the primary effect of food should be to act as a timer for early-through-mid-level characters, limiting the length of dives and adding another opportunity for careless death.

A secondary effect of food should be to provide secondary benefits/penalties, particularly at lower DL/higher CL.

--

Some thoughts:

1) limit the number of plain ol' rations in the game to maybe 20, available from the general store, once gone, they are gone. As an aside this would make glutton ghosts and rot jellies really scary early on.

2) increase the nourishment of potions/shrooms/molds/etc, as others suggest

3) tweak the base time it takes to starve to death, I propose tripling or more the timer, but adding more stages of increasingly severe penalties as starvation slowly takes hold. Conversely, I can see the benefit ofs a faster timer as well.

4) keep slow metabolism, but eliminate magical nourishment, increase the availability/variety of food items to compensate if necessary

5) perhaps as CON increases, the timer shortens proportionately (maybe this is how it works already?). Done right, this would keep food relevant through stat-gain, as magically increasing con offsets the effect of slow_metabolism items and the availability of more nourishing foods.
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Old December 15, 2010, 02:56   #33
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Originally Posted by Hariolor View Post
I propose that the primary effect of food should be to act as a timer for early-through-mid-level characters, limiting the length of dives and adding another opportunity for careless death.
I entirely disagree. The game should be in the dungeon, not in the town. Anything that is designed to force the player back to town is a mistake IMO.
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Old December 15, 2010, 03:07   #34
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I entirely disagree. The game should be in the dungeon, not in the town. Anything that is designed to force the player back to town is a mistake IMO.
I agree with this.

I am not hardline, in that I think many people find the town fun and like going back to it, so I don't want to make the town useless or force everyone to play ironman. But there should be enough food in the dungeon to allow people to keep playing if they want, and to make ironman plausibly possible for warriors.

I haven't played enough ironman recently to have an opinion on whether edibles are too common or rare right now. I anticipate the work by fizzix and myshkin on Monte Carlo simulation will help us analyze what's currently going on.
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Old December 15, 2010, 03:14   #35
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I entirely disagree. The game should be in the dungeon, not in the town. Anything that is designed to force the player back to town is a mistake IMO.
See point 1) that I made

My assumption is most players will make at least a few trips back to town during the early CLevels. Hence food should be available there until the better food starts showing up around stat-gain levels.

My concern with taking a food-from-the-dungeon-only approach early on is that angband relies on the RNG to produce food. As such, it would be necessary to set a "target" amount of food production to make levels survivable. However, the nature of statistics is such that either you make the range very narrow (and thus neuter the mechanic), or you face the likelihood of streaks of games where you simply run out of food and die in the first couple levels due to sheer bad luck. I don't think that would be fun for anyone.

In short, if food is sparse and thus a real concern, it limits the length of dives. If food can be reliably scavanged during the early game, then the mechanic becomes less threatening. I'd rather see young characters punished by having to recall back to town. Let the established characters worry about starvation while clearing vaults and whatnot.

Just my $0.02
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Old December 15, 2010, 07:13   #36
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I think I died more often because "gorged" let Morgoth double move me than from lack of food. Given that not all characters make it that far, Id prefer healing potions to not nourish. Having to make sure that Im hungry enough before tackling M is a bit silly

Another poster mentioned carrying extra potions around to free up the "food slot" which IMO is a clever solution to having to carry food around. I think the better solution is to make it so that the healing potions can't gorge you, while still providing nutrition.

I think another "neat" starvation penalty would be CON damage due to malnutrition, but i dont know how well that would be recieved or how hard it would be to implement.

Last edited by HailEris; December 15, 2010 at 07:31.
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Old December 15, 2010, 15:50   #37
Dean Anderson
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I am perhaps the loudest advocate of removing satisfy hunger from mage-casters. I cannot speak for the others, but my opinion is that *if* food is part of the game, then at least half of the classes should have to deal with it.

Saying it's a bad idea, but that's OK because we have a quick hack for spellcasters, seems selfish and lazy to me.

I'd rather see the food mechanic removed entirely, of course.
I like the fact that in the early game you have to worry about food, and then later when you've got the spell you can stop carrying it and free up the inventory space.

It adds a lot to the feel that your character is progressing and getting more powerful.

I'd make exactly the same argument for light, too. You start off having to manage torches, but eventually you'll find a perma-light object and can ditch them.

I think it would be a real shame to take out that aspect of character progression - it would make the game much blander.
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Old December 15, 2010, 16:15   #38
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I'd argue the reverse: the game is blander because every class but one stops having to worry about food after clvl 15 or so.

Take a counterpoint: priests and paladins don't get an identify spell until they find a dungeon spellbook. Until that point, they keep having to dedicate slots to identification items. Does that make them blander? No; it just means that they have to wait awhile for a payoff. In the meantime there are alternatives, so it's not like meeting that requirement is especially hard. It just requires an extra inventory slot.
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Old December 15, 2010, 17:43   #39
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I propose that the primary effect of food should be to act as a timer for early-through-mid-level characters, limiting the length of dives and adding another opportunity for careless death.
Two points here.

1. This isn't the kind of 'careless' death that much appeals to me.

2. Food's cheap, and IIRC reasonably lightweight, so even mages can pick up enough of a supply that initial dives aren't particularly limited. You're much more likely to run out of light, before you run out of food; torches *are* heavy, and don't last as long.

Also, philosophically, I'm not thrilled with a goal that is so short-lived.
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Old December 15, 2010, 18:45   #40
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Originally Posted by Hariolor View Post
1) Limit the number of plain ol' rations in the game to maybe 20, available from the general store, once gone, they are gone. As an aside this would make glutton ghosts and rot jellies really scary early on.

2) increase the nourishment of potions/shrooms/molds/etc, as others suggest

3) tweak the base time it takes to starve to death, I propose tripling or more the timer, but adding more stages of increasingly severe penalties as starvation slowly takes hold. Conversely, I can see the benefit ofs a faster timer as well.

4) keep slow metabolism, but eliminate magical nourishment, increase the availability/variety of food items to compensate if necessary

5) perhaps as CON increases, the timer shortens proportionately (maybe this is how it works already?). Done right, this would keep food relevant through stat-gain, as magically increasing con offsets the effect of slow_metabolism items and the availability of more nourishing foods.
It seems that 1) punishes people for not playing high-elves because of the Glutton Ghosts. I appreciate the aspect that makes you think about regen stuff.
2) people are complaining that they are gorged during the final fight, so really potions should either act like mini-satisfy hunger or not at all practically(two turns or so)
3) with your previous suggestions it makes sense.
4) I was about to suggest that 1 kills warriors but please keep scrolls, because ironman is dead without them
5) you mean like regen. Nice idea, but I think that regen penalty is enough
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