Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

View Poll Results: Do you want to see more significant changes to V's combat mechanics?
No - I don't even like fractional blows - go back to how it's been for decades. 1 2.94%
No - fractional blows was change enough - heavier weapons are more viable now. 11 32.35%
Yes, but I don't like the idea of +dam as %, I have a better idea. 3 8.82%
Yes, I want to see +dam as a percentage (and maybe other changes) 19 55.88%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 17, 2010, 21:41   #1
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Poll: do you want to change combat mechanics for heavy weapons?

Since there were a few replies in the O-combat section of the "making it harder" megathread, I thought I'd separate this issue out.

First, this poll is about 3.3, not 3.2. I will leave it up until after 3.2 is final.

Second, it is orthogonal to the issue of fractional blows. O-combat doesn't treat num_blows differently from the way V used to, except that the minimum is usually 2 rather than 1. So fractional blows could be used with or without the main change of O-combat.

So what is the main change of O-combat? It's really very simple: +dam does not add actual points of damage, it adds a percentage to the weapon's dice roll for damage. The percentage is one of diminishing returns, starting at +5% for +1dam and maxing out at +255% damage for +101dam.

If you think about this, it's an instant and perfect change to reflect the importance of weapon size (i.e. damage dice). +1 dam when wielding a 1d4 dagger (average damage 2.5) gives you +0.125 points of damage per blow. That same +1 dam when wielding a 3d5 lochaber axe (average dam 9) gives you +0.45 damage per blow - over three times as much, and in exact proportion with the damage dice.

(There are other differences in O combat, like the treatment of critical hits and the actual damage dice on weapons, but this is the main one.)

So, those of you who find it offensive that a beefy warrior picking up a 2d5 longsword is actually worse off than with a 1d5 main gauche - do you want to see something along these lines in V? Could those of you who like V the way it is cope with a change this radical?
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17, 2010, 22:05   #2
EpicMan
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Posts: 356
EpicMan is on a distinguished road
I vote for the change to +damage. I think the new fractional blows mechanic will still be better than the old method, so in my opinion V-combat would then be superior to o-combat.
EpicMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17, 2010, 22:49   #3
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 39
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
I am neutral right now, so I didn't vote. I'd want to put this feature in a branch and give it a lot of play testing before merging it into V (if we decide to try it). While the feature is certainly mature, I'd want to see how it shakes out in V.
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17, 2010, 22:58   #4
bio_hazard
Knight
 
bio_hazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 617
bio_hazard is on a distinguished road
Sorry to be dense about this, but how exactly do fractional blows work? I haven't made it far enough with the rc yet to figure this out.

Also, how do fractions of an hp work? Would the game keep track of each extra 0.125 hp from each blow?
bio_hazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17, 2010, 23:06   #5
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,879
Derakon is on a distinguished road
My big problem with O-style combat is that it's not very easy to calculate your damage. Introducing percentiles is bad enough, but then you get into diminishing returns and it just becomes very hard to tell what steps you should take to improve your damage without trying them all and seeing what the computer says. I would prefer all formulas in V to be simple and transparent. That in mind, what do you think of this set of changes?

1) Cap max enchantment of weapons at some fraction (e.g. half) the weapon's max damage roll. For example, 1d4 daggers max at +2,+2, 6d5 blades of chaos max at +15,+15. Make it hard for the game to generate non-artifact weapons that break this rule. Functionally this means that on-weapon enchantments can increase your damage by ~50%.
2) Reduce off-weapon damage boosters (mostly, rings of slaying/damage halved or removed outright).
3) (and this is the big one) apply slays after adding damage bonuses to the dice rolls. Damage = crit * slay * (dice + to-dam). Reduce slay multipliers to compensate (e.g. 2x => 1.25x, 3x => 1.5x, 5x => 2x).
4) Screw around with weapon dice until things are balanced again.

This makes the dice on weapons (which tends to correlate with weapon weight) be the most important factor in determining your damage. Lightweight weapons will typically be less powerful than heavy ones. The huge emphasis on wearing damage-boosting equipment is reduced. Slays aren't all-but-useless on half the weaponry in the game just because the weapons have small dice. Above all, damage calculations are very easy to perform.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17, 2010, 23:48   #6
Sirridan
Knight
 
Sirridan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 560
Sirridan is on a distinguished road
In any case it would be interesting if we could code up an in-game tool (knowledge menu?) which would allow one to screw around with things, such as increasing +damage to gear and such to see improvements, or to mess around with different pieces of gear contained in the home and pack and floor under you to see what best suit you can get.
Sirridan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17, 2010, 23:49   #7
nppangband
NPPAngband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Stat Gain, Angband
Posts: 926
nppangband is on a distinguished road
I voted yes. I do think damage be a percentage of damage dice is an improvement. The only part of O combat I was not crazy about was the # of blows per round (2-4).

In an ideal world, I would like to see # of blows different by class, so hobbit warriors gets lots of blows from small weapons (kind of like Yoda when fighting Count Dooku, and troll warriors have less blows but get massive critical hits from heavy weapons. But (he says ironically) maybe that last bit is a little experimental should be tried out in a variant first....that idea is slowly moving up on my desired changelist towards the top.
nppangband is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18, 2010, 00:06   #8
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
My big problem with O-style combat is that it's not very easy to calculate your damage. Introducing percentiles is bad enough, but then you get into diminishing returns and it just becomes very hard to tell what steps you should take to improve your damage without trying them all and seeing what the computer says.
I don't agree with this. There is now a wealth of knowledge available on Inspecting your weapon, and it would be pretty simple to work out which change of kit would give you a greater boost to damage.

That's not to say I don't like your ideas - they're all fine - but I don't think that opacity is a problem with O-combat. I say this even though the original author of O was obsessed with making his games opaque and mysterious. If anything, O-combat mechanics are far more intuitive than current V, so being able to calculate them exactly is less important.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18, 2010, 00:06   #9
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
O-combat is a big change, but if made properly can be very good. IIRC Sangband uses o-combat model and it definitely works there very well.

That said, I voted "fractional blows is enough" because it is enough. O-combat model is a HUGE change. It would require rebalance of every single weapon and enormous time to playtest to get it right. That's something that would need to be maintained as parallel to current vanilla quite a long time, like a sister project, before accepting it as working combat model.
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18, 2010, 00:18   #10
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by bio_hazard View Post
Sorry to be dense about this, but how exactly do fractional blows work? I haven't made it far enough with the rc yet to figure this out.
It's actually not very visible, the effects are quite small, but important. It goes like this:

There are two types of "turns" in the game - your actions (player turns) and the game's internal "ticks" (game turns).

Every game turn, you receive a finite amount of energy (usually 10, but modified by your speed). When you reach 100 energy, you get to take a player turn - an action, a command. Most commands take 100 energy (nothing takes more), so the game ticks on until you get back to 100 for your next turn. Monsters get to move when they hit 100, between your moves. Fast monsters get more energy per game turn, so could get two or more moves before you get to move again.

Traditional combat says that you spend 100 energy and get a certain number of blows. End of.

Fractional blows says that each blow takes a certain amount of energy - it could be 100, but it could be as low as 15 for warriors. You keep getting blows until either the monster dies, or your next blow would take you over the 100-energy limit for this player turn.

What this means is that unless your energy per blow divides exactly into 100 (in which case it's no different to traditional combat, apart from stopping when the critter dies), you will accumulate a small reserve of energy each player turn. This will eventually result in your next player turn arriving slightly earlier than it would otherwise have done.

That's about the best I can do at this time of night without ending up TL;DR.
Quote:
Also, how do fractions of an hp work? Would the game keep track of each extra 0.125 hp from each blow?
No - all fractions are rounded. I was merely illustrating the comparison. To get a whole point of extra damage from a 1d4 dagger you would need at least +4dam with this system - but to get a whole point of extra damage on your 3d5 axe you would only need +2dam ...
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trying to understand Ranger playing mechanics dormouse Vanilla 5 December 15, 2009 11:43
Combat System Sirridan Development 9 July 14, 2009 07:11
Question regarding play mechanics opeth2112 Vanilla 12 April 27, 2009 22:40
[FA, O?] Combat Ghen Variants 1 July 16, 2007 19:06
Light weapons should be harder to enchant to-dam, heavy ones to-hit ekolis Vanilla 11 July 15, 2007 00:07


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.