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View Poll Results: Do you want to see more significant changes to V's combat mechanics?
No - I don't even like fractional blows - go back to how it's been for decades. 1 2.94%
No - fractional blows was change enough - heavier weapons are more viable now. 11 32.35%
Yes, but I don't like the idea of +dam as %, I have a better idea. 3 8.82%
Yes, I want to see +dam as a percentage (and maybe other changes) 19 55.88%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 18, 2010, 01:26   #11
bio_hazard
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Thanks for the explanation. I think I'd like to get a better feel for how fractional blows play out before choosing one of the options. I like a lot of the possibiliites mentioned (O-combat, Crawl-like enchant limits, etc)
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Old December 18, 2010, 01:27   #12
Timo Pietilä
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Biggest difference you see when you have a good weapon, a lot of blows and go make havoc in pits. Warrior with 6 or more blows, a bit speed and "kill it with single hit" weapon can kill 6 orcs before orcs get a turn (some of them will move, but not all). You use more keypresses, but lot less game time to clear a pit.

Or same deal against out-of-control breeders. Enough blows and you can swim through them like they were not there. Something you could never do against fast-moving breeders in old system. It's like hit, hit, hit, hole, move, hit, hit, hit, hole, move etc.

Against single big opponent difference is not noticeable. You still use all your blows every turn against Drolem until the turn it dies.

Against group of hounds and other group monsters like that killing them one by one causes a "time dilation" -effect. Once you start to kill them you experience that they kind of "slow down". With fractional blows you have more time waiting them to move, and groups of faster-than-you easy kills like white wolves, blink dogs etc. suddenly slow down to crawl when you start killing them. It's Matrix bullet time.
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Old December 18, 2010, 02:54   #13
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I say leave it as it is (V3.2), fractional blows seems like plenty for right now. Let that settle in and then possibly consider other options afterward if necessary.

What I would like to see if DEX being the primary stat for light weapons and STR being the primary for heavy weapons. Average weight weapons, like a long sword, would require a bit of both. Thus the lightest weapon (a dagger?) would be able to attain MAX blows even with MIN STR and MAX DEX. Inverse for heavy weapons.

Probably not for V but, I also think it would be worth looking into having STR and DEX oppose each other somewhat at higher levels. IRL It's nearly impossible to be brutally strong and incredibly nimble. Also a first step toward not having every character WIN with all stats maxed.

Sorry for the off topic ramble.
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Old December 18, 2010, 04:23   #14
Estie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
.... IRL It's nearly impossible to be brutally strong and incredibly nimble. Also a first step toward not having every character WIN with all stats maxed.

Sorry for the off topic ramble.
Bruce Lee comes to mind

As for the topic at hand, I am undecided and havent voted (yet). On the one hand I like it that the best weapon for a level 1 character is different from the best weapon for the M fight. It adds complexity, and at some point youll have to transition to heavier weapons. On the other hand finding that rare ood weapon and not wanting to use it is bad. I dont see a way get the first without the second.
Currently, at the start weight dominates the damage while at the end its damage dice. With O-combat, it would be damage dice from the start.

Damage enchantment proportional to dice is good, but I dont like the %display. Id rather have a straight damage displayed, but that can be accomplished easily:

When the game picks a damage enchantment for a given weapon, modify the formula to multiply the average base damge into it. When weapons get enchanted by scrolls, modify the success chance similarly, by checking current enchantment against average base damage. If all sources of damage enchantment that exist in the game take base damage into account, it has the same gameplay effect as O´s %damage but the vanilla readability is preserved.

There had been another idea floating around, which I like very much:
namely to give everyone the priest/mage attack table (with 4 attacks maximum) and add 1 attack for halfcasters and 2 attacks for the warrior. If early game damage is too much (like, level 1 warriors getting 6 attacks with dagger ?), delay the additional attacks, maybe level 10/20 for +1/+2.

What I really would like to see is different optimal setups depending on stats; like the dextrous hobbit prefering daggers while the strong troll wants maces. However, with the current stat system that works only in the very early game (if at all), in the endgame everyone has the same str/dex. Untill/unless that gets changed, theres imo no point to differentiate.
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Old December 18, 2010, 04:52   #15
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I haven't played it a whole lot, but I think the new ToME has weapon-specific boosts from str and dex (I think). Some weapons get boosted by one or the other, some by both.

I like where this is going.
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Old December 18, 2010, 05:34   #16
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Those who followed the "Make Angband Harder" thread will know that I was a major proponent of a change to the combat system. Naturally, I'm happy this is getting a review and discussion.

I haven't actually tried 3.2 yet, I'm going to wait until it's a bit more stable. since I'm not much of a coder, I'm not likely to contribute much to the bug-find/fix process. I don't want to just jump in and say "yes, import O-style combat modifiers" until I actually try fractional blows in 3.2; as Timo said, it might be enough.

I think part of why this is a burning issue for me, is I do tend to play a lot of warriors, and I think they are hit hardest by the light-weight bias that has been traditional in Vanilla. Although I haven't tried it at all, and am just going by Timo's description of a Matrix-Like "Bullet Time" scenario... I wonder if Fractional Blows is maybe something that Warriors should get exclusively -basically, instead of magic, warriors are just plain better fighters (as they should be).

The O-style weight system could still be applied to the game, for all classes.
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Old December 18, 2010, 06:40   #17
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eek i voted no frac is enough but i maybe should have voted go back, i dont really get wat frac is all about or watever hoo but i knda read this and it saying things like main gauche better , cry cry- is good as is imo~ why need changing??

if get good blade it giv good blow if you are good anyway dont it lol eek?

sorry im new, but this game is dear to me- any changing is scary eeee~~
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Old December 18, 2010, 07:18   #18
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Voted for frac-blows is enough.

Fracblows + damage display that is. Much more easy now to see the effect of slays, weapon weight and crits on average damage. Having a proper brand/slay and even normal weight weapon kicks most daggers butts, and now with fracblows it usually is better even at start. A heavy branded weapon can get 30+dmg per blow right from the get-go, and even with 1.3 blows it tends to overdamage daggers unless you have lucky early +dmg finds.
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Old December 18, 2010, 17:04   #19
bulian
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I like the fractional blows change. A simple addendum I would make is to change +blows items to be percentage based as well. For example, haradrim shield provides 25% damage increase for casters but only 16% for warriors. Similarly, belthronding bow is 100% increase in shooting damage for everyone but rangers.
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Old December 18, 2010, 18:30   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulian View Post
I like the fractional blows change. A simple addendum I would make is to change +blows items to be percentage based as well. For example, haradrim shield provides 25% damage increase for casters but only 16% for warriors. Similarly, belthronding bow is 100% increase in shooting damage for everyone but rangers.
Yup. That's ticket #1233, currently scheduled for 3.4 (but that could mean anything).
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