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View Poll Results: Do you want to see more significant changes to V's combat mechanics?
No - I don't even like fractional blows - go back to how it's been for decades. 1 2.94%
No - fractional blows was change enough - heavier weapons are more viable now. 11 32.35%
Yes, but I don't like the idea of +dam as %, I have a better idea. 3 8.82%
Yes, I want to see +dam as a percentage (and maybe other changes) 19 55.88%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 20, 2010, 22:34   #41
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
If you let artifacts break the cap, you just relegate all ego weeapons to junk once you find pretty much any artifact weapon. You will find better artifacts before you find better egos. That's a bad direction IMO.

The problem with light weapons isn't the plus on the weapon itself anyway. The reason my half-troll chars prefer a dagger to a maul is the str bonus and two rings of reckless attacks. 3 blows with a +0+0 dagger beats one blow with a +9+9 maul, even if you could afford the exorbitant markup on the purchase price. The enchantment on the dagger itself is just icing on the cake.
This is exactly why turning +dam into a % is a better idea than capping +dam on weapons. The two rings and STR bonus can only take 1d4 so far with % bonus, so the maul would be better in proportion with its price ...
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Old December 21, 2010, 03:01   #42
dos350
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hi can someone please explain like

-
-

wat is exactly different??

anyway ill look at the 320 changes again, but really~ is scary to me- it seems to be good as is in 312??

eek
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Old December 21, 2010, 03:33   #43
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Here's another thought on managing heavy vs. light weapons: simply restrict access to extra blows based on character level. E.g. mages get one blow at level 1, two at level 15, three at level 30, and four at level 40. Warriors get two at level 1, three at level 15, four at 25, five at 35, and six at 40. And so on. Rationalize it as requiring more skill from the character to be able to wield the weapon effectively.
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Old December 21, 2010, 04:03   #44
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Do mages really get 4 blows??? That seems like a lot (more than the one they deserve), considering that warriors max out at 6??? Where's the middle ground for the rest of the classes (half-casters and such). Seems like there should be more of a spread.
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Old December 21, 2010, 05:27   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
This is exactly why turning +dam into a % is a better idea than capping +dam on weapons. The two rings and STR bonus can only take 1d4 so far with % bonus, so the maul would be better in proportion with its price ...
The troll shouldn't even have to pay for a maul. He should break off a tree branch, maybe getting something a bit heavier for the same dice but at least somewhat comparable for free. But that's a discussion for a different day.

Anyway, I never argued against O combat.

But before you jump to the conclusion we are agreeing on something, would you answer my question "If the problem is that we want people to use heavier weapons, is it not enough to change the blows calculations so that you get more blows with heavier weapons sooner?".

Or is the problem something different?
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Old December 21, 2010, 09:44   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
A lot of people are coming out in favor, but I don't think it works. Does that mean we cut Ringil to have +10 damage?

This is a massive change to combat. If you go this way, you might as well import O combat. You are going to need to do just as much rebalancing.

If the problem is that we want people to use heavier weapons, is it not enough to change the blows calculations so that you get more blows with heavier weapons sooner?
I was suggesting not having a hard cap just have heavier items more likely to have higher damage enchantment.

Changing the blow calculations would work though. I think warriors should get a couple of blows at least with the medium weight weapons at the start of the game.

The current way it is currently calculated seems strange with 10 and 18 dexterity getting the same number of blows. It makes an early ring of dexterity pretty useless to most characters.
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:28   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
I was suggesting not having a hard cap just have heavier items more likely to have higher damage enchantment.

Changing the blow calculations would work though. I think warriors should get a couple of blows at least with the medium weight weapons at the start of the game.

The current way it is currently calculated seems strange with 10 and 18 dexterity getting the same number of blows. It makes an early ring of dexterity pretty useless to most characters.
Actually the 3rd column is now 17 not 18 - I revised the columns when I edited blows_table to use epb. There's now a smooth progression every 20 percentiles instead of massive breakpoints at 18/10 and 18/100. Admittedly there's no improvement between 10 and 17 Dex, but it would be easy enough to add another column to the table (or two) if there's demand for it. How many chars have less than 17 Dex?
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:35   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The troll shouldn't even have to pay for a maul. He should break off a tree branch, maybe getting something a bit heavier for the same dice but at least somewhat comparable for free. But that's a discussion for a different day.
Indeed it is - you know that we agree on the whole shopping issue.
Quote:
Anyway, I never argued against O combat.
I'm not saying you did - I was just using your post to make a point to a wider audience. It wasn't until you gave that splendid comparison that I realised quite why I didn't like Derakon's capping idea. The basic issue is that the "size" of a weapon is indicated by its base dice. Therefore any +dam mechanic that is unrelated to base dice will favour light weapons - this is the problem with the current system of linear +dam. Any steps to address weapon weight properly *must* relate +dam to the base dice in some way. The troll choosing the +0 dagger over the +9 maul is the perfect example of that.
Quote:
But before you jump to the conclusion we are agreeing on something, would you answer my question "If the problem is that we want people to use heavier weapons, is it not enough to change the blows calculations so that you get more blows with heavier weapons sooner?".

Or is the problem something different?
Is this a sport for you? Statistically I infer that you must *enjoy* disagreeing with me, or you wouldn't try to do it so often!

I don't think it's enough just to change the blows calculation, no - I think that's orthogonal to the +dam issue. I think the use of heavier weapons will always be discouraged while a +10 damage ring has exactly the same numerical damage boost to a dagger's strike as a maul's swing.

Last edited by Magnate; December 21, 2010 at 13:50.
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Old December 21, 2010, 12:35   #49
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8 blows with maul of xtra attack~? please im sorry but im really missing the issue~ isnt it only mattering at startgame?? is it bad currently?~~~ eek!!!!!
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Old December 21, 2010, 17:26   #50
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It seems like having damage bonuses applied per dice rather than per weapon would work, without having to get into less transparent % algorithms. Obviously both on and off- weapon +dam bonuses would have to be toned down quite a bit.

Great hammers (8d1) would finally be great!
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