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Old December 23, 2010, 19:37   #41
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
The vault rule of not allowing phasing into vault area illustrates my point perfectly. Originally introduced to disbale "cheesy" ways of getting in, it has the sideeffect of making phase door a failsafe escape inside vaults where it isnt so otherwise. Same with perma walls: can be used to thin out tunnelers.

I am saying that whatever special rules you introduce will have similar unforseen effects. It will change the way people approach vaults and play the game in generally. Thats ok of course, but if its a good change, why restrict it to vaults ?

If mass genociding a vault is "lame", then why is mass genociding anything else not.
The whole point of "vault" is to protect what's inside. That is pretty much dictionary definition of vault. So items and monsters should be protected from outside influences and also require "cracking the vault" in order to get in. However once inside getting out should not be that hard (it is not prison cell, it is a vault)

That means that items as well as monsters should be safe from spells that usually get rid of them, but like player are easy to teleport away.

For game balance mass geno and destruct are too easy ways to get rid of monsters protecting the loot. A big GV can have 10-20 artifacts in it, so *destrcution* -spell turns to *easy way to get artifacts* -spell. Same applies to mass geno.
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Old December 23, 2010, 19:48   #42
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Originally Posted by d_m View Post
Agreed completely. The "trap detection game" as currently played with spells/scrolls/rods is boring and doesn't add a lot of value to Angband.

I like the idea of automatically trying to find traps in LOS. I also like the idea of removing trap detection spells/effects. If traps are worth having in the game (and honestly I would be fine removing them, and trying to make the game harder in other ways) then they are worth stumbling into sometimes.

If there is a play style that guarantees you will never hit a single trap ever, and traps are dangerous enough that you want to avoid them, then I don't think traps are even worth having, because it will force everyone to adopt that particular play style (which might be repetitive, boring, etc).
I think this is a perfect analogy with curses. When we only have the sticky curse, everyone plays to avoid it with ID, and it's not worth having. When we have a range of interesting and mixed curses, play styles will vary as some will still avoid them and others will embrace them.

I think it should be possible to do the same with an interesting variety of trap - create a game where avoiding them at all costs is not the only viable play style.
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Old December 23, 2010, 19:53   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
For game balance mass geno and destruct are too easy ways to get rid of monsters protecting the loot. A big GV can have 10-20 artifacts in it, so *destrcution* -spell turns to *easy way to get artifacts* -spell. Same applies to mass geno.
I dont know how others play this game, but for me changing that would have very little effect. It isnt any harder to win when vaults cant be destructed. So how is game balance affected ? I dont think I destruct 1 vault in 10 winning games if that. And thats not because I find anything wrong with it. Im going to bet though that some (not yet foreseen) consequences will bear heavier on the game than what little effect removing destructed vaults has.
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Old December 23, 2010, 19:58   #44
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Originally Posted by d_m View Post
Err, yeah I mean mages. I thought priests did get banishment and greater recharge, but it just shows that I have played more mages than priests.

For what it's worth I think Estie may be right--certainly I think teleport-other is really over-powered in general and vaults are just the place where that comes through the most. I need to think about it more I guess.
Without TO many GV:s become inaccessible. It could take only one 40dlvl OoD monster to block your entire access to vault. You need a way to get rid of the monster and it needs to be rather fail-proof method, otherwise CGV turns to inaccessible useless section of the dungeon.

Of course if you allow phase door work as it works now, you can crack open the block containing that said too-hard-to-handle monster, phase, lure it outside and TO/destruct/banish it after it is outside. For some vaults that is difficult because of monster pathfinding restrictions. They just don't know how to get to you. Especially pass-wall and kill-wall monsters don't have a clue how to react to permanent walls.

I would be very careful before I tweak TO weaker. It is one monster handling method that affects game balance a lot. Change it and whole game changes. Way more situations change to "avoid at all costs" situations without semi-guaranteed TO. Especially summoners change to much much much more dangerous, and that would lead to everybody using ASC to kill them.
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Old December 23, 2010, 20:04   #45
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
I dont know how others play this game, but for me changing that would have very little effect. It isnt any harder to win when vaults cant be destructed.
It isn't very hard to win, period. That doesn't make clearing vaults with mass monster removal spells any less cheesy.
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Old December 23, 2010, 20:06   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
It isn't very hard to win, period. That doesn't make clearing vaults with mass monster removal spells any less cheesy.
Timo, I don't disagree with your basic position on vault-cheesing, but please remember how many standard deviations from the mean you are in terms of playing skill and experience. I have only ever won once, in ten years, and plenty of people have never won in longer periods. It is quite a hard game, even if not as hard as it once was.
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Old December 23, 2010, 20:08   #47
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
It isn't very hard to win, period. That doesn't make clearing vaults with mass monster removal spells any less cheesy.
Define "cheesy" please.
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Old December 23, 2010, 20:26   #48
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Timo, I don't disagree with your basic position on vault-cheesing, but please remember how many standard deviations from the mean you are in terms of playing skill and experience. I have only ever won once, in ten years, and plenty of people have never won in longer periods. It is quite a hard game, even if not as hard as it once was.
I have always wondered what people find hard in angband. It really isn't very difficult to beat the game. You only need:

1) Some patience. It is a infinite dungeon with infinite amounts of items, so you are never required to take any unnecessary risks. Greed is a killer.
2) Basic knowledge of how much damage you can suffer from any attack, even some estimate works (I use this with variants and with rather high success. IIRC it took me two tries to win Sangband)
3) Knowledge of "hidden" instant deaths. In angband there are actually just three of them: Paralyzation, stunning->KO and "too high damage to handle without resist"
4) basic "if you don't know what it is, assume it can kill you" mentality.
5) knowledge that free turns with speed is way more valuable than nearly anything else.

All of that knowledge can be acquired with just few games, and rest is just reasoning learned from experience (blind: can't use scrolls or spells=dangerous. Confused: can't use scrolls or spells and you suck at fighting=dangerous. nexus can swap your stats=dangerous etc.)

One major point to learn is that you always die to lack of HP. So more HP keeps you alive longer.
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Old December 23, 2010, 20:30   #49
Timo Pietilš
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Define "cheesy" please.
Easy beyond fun. That's like beating a child and steal its lollipop. Not cool.
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Old December 23, 2010, 20:31   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
I have always wondered what people find hard in angband. It really isn't very difficult to beat the game. You only need:

1) Some patience. It is a infinite dungeon with infinite amounts of items, so you are never required to take any unnecessary risks. Greed is a killer.
2) Basic knowledge of how much damage you can suffer from any attack, even some estimate works (I use this with variants and with rather high success. IIRC it took me two tries to win Sangband)
3) Knowledge of "hidden" instant deaths. In angband there are actually just three of them: Paralyzation, stunning->KO and "too high damage to handle without resist"
4) basic "if you don't know what it is, assume it can kill you" mentality.
5) knowledge that free turns with speed is way more valuable than nearly anything else.

All of that knowledge can be acquired with just few games, and rest is just reasoning learned from experience (blind: can't use scrolls or spells=dangerous. Confused: can't use scrolls or spells and you suck at fighting=dangerous. nexus can swap your stats=dangerous etc.)

One major point to learn is that you always die to lack of HP. So more HP keeps you alive longer.
I think it comes down to self-discipline and patience. I have no lesser understanding of those things than you, but I take more unnecessary risks because of greed or impatience or carelessness, so I die far more often. I think you are unusually methodical and disciplined, especially if you beat Sangband in two tries!
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