Sil: Proper Starts? (Builds that aren't Artistry)

[BlueFish]

Not at 200 ft they're not.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I guess it depends on what you find to be easy. What Debo does easily, I find very difficult. I can't recall last time I died to 200ft or previous, but I play a warrior type start, so that is pretty dang durable as opposed to a player dabbling with stealth, or whatever.

As for a character build, the only one I have repeated success with is a heavy protection warrior. I've won with all but the humans with this approach, as it's pretty tanky with decent opportunity for wig-splitting. Rush 9 evasion reasonably fast, buy heavy armor mastery, get melee to +14 bonus or so, buy all the necessary survival feats, like keen senses/hardiness/rpois/crit.resistance/etc

As you find good protection armor and items, wear 'em. Think, 10-33 or more protection. You'll be sword and boarding, or axe and shield for most of the game. Start adding more melee points near 650', get bonus to over +20. Start removing some armor penalty items for more melee accuracy at end game, to end fights faster.

[taptap]

Originally Posted by BlueFish

Not at 200 ft they're not.

I like to fight with the stairs behind the enemies, so fleeing enemies leave the floor for good and don't harass me later and less enemies turn up behind me. I also started to fight in the mouth (first tile) of corridors (your back to lighted room) after watching clouded play. That way you see approaching enemies and can reposition. For the same reason it is safer to take out archers at suitable room entrances instead of corridor turns, probably also inspired by clouded or debo. And nothing really stops you from having Song of Elbereth at 200 ft.

[half]

Originally Posted by taptap

I also started to fight in the mouth (first tile) of corridors (your back to lighted room) after watching clouded play.

Interesting. This has occurred to me too. There are two downsides I see. It makes you easier to notice for wandering enemies and it means that you may have to fight more than two enemies at most (which is the upper bound for how bad it gets if you are in the corridor). I think it is probably worth these downsides, but am not sure. Fighting one square from the mouth is an option that makes these a bit less bad, but may mean you don't see the new enemies in time to go into the room when that is the best tactic.

[taptap]

Military archery build (no stealth, no listen) is solid enough to propose as proper build. Wildkhaine pulled this off in record time and without the morale effects - but I suggest it is easier with them especially since crippling shot and longbows got nerfed.

Weaponsmith, versatility, a little evasion at start with a balanced stat distribution (e.g. 2/4/4/4). Forge a 2lb longbow and arrows at the first forge. Take Elbereth and Sprinting early and build up your archery and perception (concentration, optionally keen senses). Get crippling shot, majesty (requires 9 will) and lots of light (affects morale for some and allows you to aim from some tiles away) - add majesty staffs for overkill. Soon most enemies will flee after you get the first hit on them - which is very useful given you stand no chance in melee against say greater werewolves, but are strong enough to clean up the worm masses you wake up given your lack of stealth. Elbereth and Sprinting are crucial for early survival and remain useful throughout. Possible with or without more smithing. Don't waste too much arrows on flaming arrows as you are much more dependent on arrows than hunter (stealth+archery) builds who can go into complete avoidance mode for a while. Keep a swap bow even if you finally change to shortbow - this helps you saving arrows because you don't need flaming arrows on everything that is resisting critical hits. If you have the strength a good 3lb longbow might be better even for the throne room. Song of Sharpness helps in late game to shoot grotesques and larger serpents, as an archer you are always in a good position to kill dragons (with fire resist, free action and clarity) whenever you can get enough distance on them.

(I just don't know how to do the throne room with this.)

P.S. Now, I do. It can work.

[mrrstark]

by "moral" do you mean "morale"? as in abilities that demoralize/intimidate the enemy and make them flee sooner?

[taptap]

Originally Posted by mrrstark

by "moral" do you mean "morale"? as in abilities that demoralize/intimidate the enemy and make them flee sooner?

Indeed. In case this isn't obvious, English is not my native language.

[mrrstark]

Originally Posted by taptap

Indeed. In case this isn't obvious, English is not my native language.

Ha no problem, I was just wondering if there was a mechanic I hadn't discovered.

I gave a few of these builds a try over the weekend and .... died horribly many many times ... found out just how useful the artistry start is...

But seriously, I'm grateful for the build ideas, it's given me a bit of insight into how people think when they put together some of the builds, and how to find synergies etc.

One question, in one of the earlier posts:

I like to take flanking and subtlety next and go with a light good quality longsword or even better a 1 lb shortsword.

Why 1lb? Why shortsword? How do lighter weapon weights help?

I think it has something to do with the critical strike mechanics, but I couldn't find the reason.

[taptap]

Originally Posted by mrrstark

Why 1lb? Why shortsword? How do lighter weapon weights help?

Critical hits require beating the opponents evasion roll by 7 + weapon weight -1 for finesse -2 for subtlety when one handed (= no shield / no two-weapon fighting). So a subtle / one handed 1lb shortsword gives you critical hits for every 5 points you beat them, a 2lb sword for every 6 points.

For bows it is the same just you only get -1 for precision and there is no equivalent for subtlety.

Weight matters a lot in Sil. And I particularly love that in Sil a well balanced sword forged in the first forge can be your weapon of choice from start to end - no need to power up through an endless succession of +2 to +5 to +11 to +16 weapons as it seems to happen in other roguelikes (Angband?).

I tend / used to die a lot early, especially with my light weapon, subtlety attempts (that is why I started to value flexibility and more early game strength), flanking is great regardless, you can do it with a bastard sword just as well. The no-stealth archer (Egrent on the ladder), however, went all the way to 950ft. in the first attempt and is still alive and kicking (and has the highest archery skill I ever had).

I learned a lot from watching debo, clouded and wildkhaine play (the only people who published games) - how you use the char you have is probably more important than the specific build. That's so great about Sil: there are many viable ideas, including some not envisioned by the creators.

[half]

Originally Posted by taptap

Indeed. In case this isn't obvious, English is not my native language.

It isn't obvious. Your English is excellent.