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Old October 7, 2020, 22:30   #1
Seraphimus
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Cthanband Warrior vs Chosen one

Been playing cthangband lately as it's probably my favorite variant, and after doing some comparison between the two and looking through the help files, I can't really figure out why you would ever play the warrior over the chosen.

Unless they get some unlisted bonuses (I.e. Extra attacks at a certain stage) the only benefit to the warrior i can find is better starting gear and 2 extra strength. Yeah the chosen has a small Exp penalty but for all the resistances and and immunities they get, and the fact that penalty is one of the smaller ones makes it inevitably more worth it in my mind.

so the question I have, am I missing something about the warrior, info not provided/missed in the help menu or is it just that the chosen is meant to be an easier version of the Warrior (Which is fine I like different levels of diffculty in games like this)
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Old October 12, 2020, 13:46   #2
Dean Anderson
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The warrior gets:
  • Extra attacks more quickly and with heavier weapons
  • More hit points
  • Better attack bonuses
  • Quicker level gain
  • Quicker and better pseudo-id

There may be other minor advantages that the warrior has, but I'm away from the source code at the moment.

Basically a chosen one fights like a priest - effectively they are a priest, but with passive abilities and the ability to use edged weapons rather than spell casting.
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Old October 12, 2020, 21:06   #3
CyclopsSlayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post
Basically a chosen one fights like a priest - effectively they are a priest, but with passive abilities and the ability to use edged weapons rather than spell casting.
Honestly, the Chosen One doesn't sound all that special. lol
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Old October 13, 2020, 09:11   #4
Seraphimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post
The warrior gets:
  • Extra attacks more quickly and with heavier weapons
  • More hit points
  • Better attack bonuses
  • Quicker level gain
  • Quicker and better pseudo-id

There may be other minor advantages that the warrior has, but I'm away from the source code at the moment.

Basically a chosen one fights like a priest - effectively they are a priest, but with passive abilities and the ability to use edged weapons rather than spell casting.
So, I don't disbelieve you as you're the creator, so as a player going through the help file (Screen shots attached for your convenience) and from my experience I'd like to offer some things I noticed and feedback.

-the help file says they both get the same bonus hit die, and compared to warriors I have played (in other bands, never really did a full warrior run in cthangband I like the chosen ass it stand, a ton), I really didn't feel like I had less health, if they do get less health then warriors, I feel like it should be mentioned somewhere, and maybe more noticeable?

-they definitely have the same melee and ranged skill progression, I did some testing of that on my own of the first few levels, i don't know if warriors get other attack bonuses, but again, if they do, it's not in the help file anywhere I can find. Maybe the warrior needs a chart for bonuses like the other classes have?

-As I played i *did* notice the extra attacks coming slower then I was used to for melee archetypes, is it like the bands where warriors also have an additional max/free extra attack at a certain level?

-with how high the exp penalty for a lot of the races is, the extra 20% didn't feel like it made much of an impact until very late game and even then. I did play a draconian though so I was already running 250%, and I'm used to playing high XP races because I find them more fun so take that one with a grain of salt.

-finally, even if the chosen is worse at melee, They really still do play just like a better warrior, by level 25 I basically never had to worry about my resistances again, (til I got deep enough for nether and wasn't only level 42) Which meant I could focus entirely on gear that gave me speed, damage or extra attacks. I still needed magical staves and such for a few things, but I never needed resistance potions to cover gaps, I started squelching most stat restore potions fairly early on and basically never looked back, never once had to sacrifice a high AC piece of gear for one that covered free action or some vital high resist or carry around scrolls of bless to keep my AC high enough to survive uniques. I've never had such an "easy" time as a melee character in a band before(still much harder than most casters I've played), as it stands the only reason I died (and I did die) was just really bad luck with unique weapon drops not have enough slay or elemental brands on them and just hit a wall of not being able to push past a quest to kill 14 greater chaos wyrms in the necropolis. part of it was hubris though, I probably should have saved some weapons with different brands and traveled with multiple.

-I also really didn't notice issues with the pseudo ID, Mine felt fairly quick and effective as the chosen one frequently ID'ing things on the turn I picked them up by around 40, though again, maybe it's different in your band as I've not played a straight warrior that deep in yours specifically.
That said:
My feedback is, it really feels like the Cthangband Warrior is a newbie trap because the only time it was better was the first 3-4 dungeon levels because it has better starting gear. Maybe note some of the differences on the warriors help page, it's really barebones, or do something to balance them differently if there are as few as it seemed like.

also maybe consider limiting the number of quest monsters that can spawn on dungeons with guaranteed tiny levels. there was absolutely nothing I could do about those chaos wyrms where I wasn't fighting 4-6(frequently all 14) of them at a time, usually as soon as I entered the level as the levels were smaller then their aggro range.
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Old October 13, 2020, 12:46   #5
Dean Anderson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphimus View Post
So, I don't disbelieve you as you're the creator, so as a player going through the help file (Screen shots attached for your convenience) and from my experience I'd like to offer some things I noticed and feedback.

-the help file says they both get the same bonus hit die, and compared to warriors I have played (in other bands, never really did a full warrior run in cthangband I like the chosen ass it stand, a ton), I really didn't feel like I had less health, if they do get less health then warriors, I feel like it should be mentioned somewhere, and maybe more noticeable?

-they definitely have the same melee and ranged skill progression, I did some testing of that on my own of the first few levels, i don't know if warriors get other attack bonuses, but again, if they do, it's not in the help file anywhere I can find. Maybe the warrior needs a chart for bonuses like the other classes have?
I was wrong in the post above (well, I did say I was away from my code).

They currently do have the hit points and skill progression as warriors - that's something I need to change, as I agree they're too powerful as they are.

Quote:
-As I played i *did* notice the extra attacks coming slower then I was used to for melee archetypes, is it like the bands where warriors also have an additional max/free extra attack at a certain level?
No, it's actually rather complex (and inherited from Zangband).

Basically, your strength score provides a bonus, and your class then provides a multiplier for this bonus. This multiplied bonus is then divided by the weight of your weapon, with your class providing a minimum value for this weight, to produce a number.

Then your dexterity score also provides a number.

These two numbers are both capped at 11 and then cross-referenced in a table which gives you your number of attacks.

But then that number of attacks is capped again to a maximum value based on your class.

Note that level doesn't enter into it - unless you're a Mystic without weapons in which case all the above is ignored and your number of attacks is purely level based instead.

The Chosen One has a lower multiplier than a Warrior, so they'll get fewer attacks in general, and they also have a higher minimum weapon weight so they don't get as big an advantage for using a smaller weapon. Also they're capped at a maximum of 5 attacks per round compared to a Warrior's 6.

Quote:
-with how high the exp penalty for a lot of the races is, the extra 20% didn't feel like it made much of an impact until very late game and even then. I did play a draconian though so I was already running 250%, and I'm used to playing high XP races because I find them more fun so take that one with a grain of salt.

-finally, even if the chosen is worse at melee, They really still do play just like a better warrior, by level 25 I basically never had to worry about my resistances again, (til I got deep enough for nether and wasn't only level 42) Which meant I could focus entirely on gear that gave me speed, damage or extra attacks. I still needed magical staves and such for a few things, but I never needed resistance potions to cover gaps, I started squelching most stat restore potions fairly early on and basically never looked back, never once had to sacrifice a high AC piece of gear for one that covered free action or some vital high resist or carry around scrolls of bless to keep my AC high enough to survive uniques. I've never had such an "easy" time as a melee character in a band before(still much harder than most casters I've played), as it stands the only reason I died (and I did die) was just really bad luck with unique weapon drops not have enough slay or elemental brands on them and just hit a wall of not being able to push past a quest to kill 14 greater chaos wyrms in the necropolis. part of it was hubris though, I probably should have saved some weapons with different brands and traveled with multiple.
Not needing to base equipment on resists and being free to use it for bonuses instead is the whole point of the Chosen One, so that's (kind of) working as intended. However, I do agree that they need to have their abilities reduced so that they don't completely overshadow Warriors.

Quote:
-I also really didn't notice issues with the pseudo ID, Mine felt fairly quick and effective as the chosen one frequently ID'ing things on the turn I picked them up by around 40, though again, maybe it's different in your band as I've not played a straight warrior that deep in yours specifically.
No, you're right. Having looked at the code they do get the same pseudo-id as Warriors. That's something else I'll change.

Quote:
That said:
My feedback is, it really feels like the Cthangband Warrior is a newbie trap because the only time it was better was the first 3-4 dungeon levels because it has better starting gear. Maybe note some of the differences on the warriors help page, it's really barebones, or do something to balance them differently if there are as few as it seemed like.
I don't think Warriors are a newbie trap, since they're the easiest characters to get started with and newbies aren't going to be anywhere near finishing the game anyway.

But I am going to put a note in the documentation that although Warriors are the easiest character to get used to the game with before you branch out into characters with spells or special abilities, they are also the hardest character to win the game with.

Quote:
also maybe consider limiting the number of quest monsters that can spawn on dungeons with guaranteed tiny levels. there was absolutely nothing I could do about those chaos wyrms where I wasn't fighting 4-6(frequently all 14) of them at a time, usually as soon as I entered the level as the levels were smaller then their aggro range.
The current development version has a change where you no longer have to kill all the quest monsters in one go. You can now nip into the level, pick off one or two, and retreat; then come back to the level later to kill some more. That makes a big difference to that sort of situation.
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Old October 13, 2020, 19:19   #6
Seraphimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post
I was wrong in the post above (well, I did say I was away from my code).

They currently do have the hit points and skill progression as warriors - that's something I need to change, as I agree they're too powerful as they are.
to be fair I like that they're powerful in that bands have always had an asymmetrical balance, you choose your difficulty when you choose race and class, that said yeah they are probably a bit too over tuned, I'm just concerned hitting their hit points or melee progression to that of a priest will make them nonviable as melee combatants at deeper depths. I guess that's something I'll test when you make changes because as of RN, it's my favorite class to play because of the gear freedom.


Quote:
Basically, your strength score provides a bonus, and your class then provides a multiplier for this bonus. This multiplied bonus is then divided by the weight of your weapon, with your class providing a minimum value for this weight, to produce a number....
that, was a really fascinating read of the mechanics, and I absolutely love knowing how that works, I didn't realize dex played into extra attacks at all. That's really cool, and something I'll keep in mind for later playthroughs that might help me get off the ground sooner.

Quote:
However, I do agree that they need to have their abilities reduced so that they don't completely overshadow Warriors.

No, you're right. Having looked at the code they do get the same pseudo-id as Warriors. That's something else I'll change.
Yeah I hope you figure out a balance between the classes so they both feel unique and fun. I love the chosen one as a concept, the freedom of gear choice for that class is a lot of why this is my favorite band ever. I wish more classes in more bands got at least some resistances for free to facilitate that.

Quote:
I don't think Warriors are a newbie trap, since they're the easiest characters to get started with and newbies aren't going to be anywhere near finishing the game anyway.
See the current issue is the period of time where they are easier than a chosen is so small as to be almost negligible even for someone newer. it's really one or two dives to the first, maybe second floor til you can get armor to match a warrior, maybe 3 to get a better weapon as well and then it's smooth sailing from there, Especially as the healing potion they get for free is basically an extra life/get out of jail free card that low in the dungeon.

I think if I personally were to make many changes to the chosen it'd be to hit them early game, slow their resistances and sustains progression so they struggle more to break that depth and level where you start finding the better gear.

Quote:
The current development version has a change where you no longer have to kill all the quest monsters in one go. You can now nip into the level, pick off one or two, and retreat; then come back to the level later to kill some more. That makes a big difference to that sort of situation.
this would likely have saved me, I think in total I killed 18 of the dang things Hah. Very much looking forwards to the next update then.
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