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Old April 26, 2020, 22:13   #21
MicroChasm
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That is all good feedback Infinitum, thanks. I like the wolf suggestions.

The hauberk is probably the hardest item. I think I will look through other tilesets to see how they handle it. Real hauberks don't have much defining detail, and it's tough to get across the idea of rings with so few pixels.

I will try adding a hood to the cloak. Cloaks do need something to define them or they can end up blobby.

For the horns, I can review them but honestly it's not easy to get a nice curved horn with so few pixels. This orientation was the best that I saw, but again other tilesets might have solved this issue better.

For the player, this is going to have to be a discussion with Quirk. Although I love the dress-up player doll set-up of games like DCSS because they make your character feel like your own, this is not a system that is easily implemented.

I think that there is a possible compromise in the dress-up system. For example, there could be a tile for the player with a sword/hammer/ax/spear/glaive, and then these each with a shield on top. Maybe if your highest skill is archery you hold a bow? I don't know the specifics but I think there may be a way to implement this system without getting into too much detail and making it untenable.
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Old April 27, 2020, 23:14   #22
Mechapede
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Hey everybody,

So, let's go:

Bluish swordsman and wight - Orc Soldier, obviously! I should've seen that given that, yes, they are blue in ASCII. The wight looks convincing, I like it.

Orc captain - good to know the tile has since been tweaked, but may I ask whether removing the whip (indeed, not a leash) was the only change? In case such is so, then I'd suggest you could still ponder giving it some extra colors (maybe by making his sword bloodied, although that could end up having the undesirable effect of likening Orc Captains to Gorgol).

Troll, Troll Guards and Greater Werewolf - as stated before, I like them all and now that I know these are the creatures the tiles are attempting to convey, I can say with certainty that indeed, they are effective.

Herbs - hmm... I **definitely** did not get there by myself. I have two suggestions here, and shall also add an observation on the negative aspect shared by both:

Suggestion #1: How about going the Resident Evil route and trying to draw them within a vase/pot/similar container? This shouldn't create any issues with the observance of colors, as the container would remain the same and one could simply color the herbs as required.

Suggestion #2: How about drawing a simple leaf (and coloring it accordingly)?

Negative aspect: Both of them somewhat infantilize the otherwise serious tone you seem to be going for with the tileset, with #2 clearly infantilizing it more than #1 (which is why I prefer #1). Still, perhaps an interesting compromise could be reached here. If you dislike either solution, then consider making the herb a bit leafier/spikier/branch out a tad more.

Darting Horror - which one is it? I mean, I suppose it is the grayish one (even though 'darting' could mean the purple one, given wings = speed), right? At any rate and despite acknowledging that you'd rather have us guess, could you at least shed some light on which one it is? Bear in mind I have barely played Sil and never delved into Sil-Q, so there is plenty I am yet to see. Also, my lack of insight here can (and probably does) play a part on my following remark, but while I find the grayish creature very nice-looking and appropriate, the winged one looks a tad videogamey to me. Granted, there is only so much you can do with a 16x16 canvas and limited colors, mate. Likewise, I cannot provide any feedback as to how you could possibly tweak this creature (given I do not know which monster it is), and really, perhaps there is nothing to be done, here (but I thought it useful to get the "videogamey" feeling I get from it across).

Forge - ah, yes... that information does change quite a lot. Still, I'd have to go with Quirk here, as there is an inherent gameplay impact in being able to see the number of charges left while using tiles vs. not being able to do so while using ASCII. And even if that were not the case, I'd advocate for a single hammer with a little number (1, 2, 3, 4) somewhere on the tile, as the many-hammered tile does strike me as odd (as much as a hammer-less one would).

Wolves - albeit noticeably better than the previous ones, I do agree with Infinitum in that perhaps some revamp could still take place, here (and I likewise agree with his/her solution). Another potential solution is to reposition the wolf so that it faces bottom right (as if it were coming from top left, like your rendition of the shovel).

Items - jewelry looks great, and so do most weapons and armor. I do agree that the hauberk could benefit from some tweaking, though yeah, it is tricky to convey an accurate depiction of a hauberk on a 16x16 canvas. Cloaks do need something, but rather than proposing any suggestions for the time being, I guess I'd prefer to see your rendition of a cloak sporting a hood first, as that shall likely be enough. I do agree with Infinitum once more as to the buckler - but unlike him/her, I can put a finger on what triggers me. In this case, it is the color choice/jewel in the middle. If you could recolor it to bronze/gold/any wood-resembling shade and likewise rework the color of the jewel (or remove it altogether), I guess that'd do the trick. Darkening the shading effect on the right (just one or two notches darker than what it is now) could also enhance the effect of depth to a more interesting level. I **kinda** agree with Infinitum here as to the gloves, but if you were to draw the upper one in any angle rather than 90 degrees, I guess that'd lead to several little issues and just make it look crooked/misaligned somehow, no? If that is the case, just leave them be - they are fine, after all. As for the horns, I dig them as they are now and could immediately perceive them for what they are.

Continuing with the feedback - could you provide us with more pictures, mate? Showing us some more monsters could be a good idea for us to keep up with the guessing game (which is as good a gauging tool with respect to our interpretation of the tiles as any). The last picture of this second set got me particularly curious as to the color of the Nightthorns you are going for, given how similar the gray & is to the overall palette used for the walls and floor on the tileset (I imagine them to be colored somewhat like the wolves).

ETA - maybe this is to be seen with Quirk, but can we get an estimate as to when a first build with these shall be available (given Quirk hinted at this on that last post)? This could be good for testing purposes, too.

Cheers!

Last edited by Mechapede; April 27, 2020 at 23:49.
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Old April 27, 2020, 23:49   #23
Infinitum
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The purple winged creature would probably be a Vampire? Seems to lack detail still. Also another beast where Tolkien didn't go to any detail describing them, apart from them having batlike wings. My impression was they were more akin to large bats than bat-men but either way.

Likewise for the werewolves; folklore werewolves were more often depicted as large wolves with the intelligence/souls of men rather than antropomorphic wolf/man hybrids, and the depiction of Carcaroth/Drauglin seems more consistent with that of large wolves posessed by evil spirits more than wolf-men. Maybe replace the large red eyes for wolves with small yellow ones and save the red ones for the werewolves using a bulked up wolf model? Assuming that the figure next to the player character/troll guards in the penultimate image of the first set really is a were that is.

The darting horror I like. A bit reminiscent of steeds of slaanesh maybe but it gets the point across. Maybe lose the quills? More of a personal preference, but I feel as if though evil spikes is a bit
overdone.

Cat warrior.. I like the upper body well enough. The overall pose looks a bit cartoony though what with the pelvic thrust and legs spread apart, and the hind legs are a bit too primate-like imo (I'm guessing you're aware, but for anyone wondering: what we generally conceive as cats' shins corresponds to our feet; their paws are really the laste phalanxes of their digits and their "backward facing knees" are their ankles - this goes for most quadrupedes except monkeys and bears and whatnot).

Last edited by Infinitum; May 2, 2020 at 11:56.
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Old April 30, 2020, 02:47   #24
MicroChasm
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Mechapode-- Thanks again for the feedback and interest. The Darting Horror is indeed the grey creature. Rather than responding to each piece of feedback, I just want to say that I've read and understood your concerns. I can get some more pics. I've mostly been away from the tiles recently, but I will most likely return this weekend. Always a few projects going on at once.

Quirk would have to give an estimate on the availability of a new build. I could technically upload just the .bmp and two .prf files and the tileset would be playable with only a few issues. Currently the .bmp is... disorganized to say the least, because I am piggy-backing off of the setup originally intended for the Adam Bolt tileset. At some point I will have to completely revamp the .prf files to organize the tile locations.

Infinitum-- I hear you on the vampires and werewolves. I think I will consider how they could be pushed away from human and closer to beast. Currently I feel that at least a little anthropomorphism helps to keep them distinct. We currently have Wolves, White Wolves, and Wargs, which need to be distinct from Werewolves, Greater Werewolves, Drauglin, and Carchoroth. It's a lot of wolves. It's the same issue with the spiders actually-- there are nine different spider that all need to be visually distinct.

The point about the cats is well-taken. I am aware of the construction of this sort of limb, it's pretty interesting. Horses especially have interestingly modified feet-- the last joint is one just one big toe! Weird.
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Old May 2, 2020, 22:26   #25
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I've been pushing code as I go so if you're on Linux you can pull the code and do a build already. I'm probably going to hold off making a Windows build until we have an alertness icon sorted, but we should get a first attempt up within the next week or so I think.
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Old May 3, 2020, 23:51   #26
MicroChasm
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Some new screens for everyone interested. I've made some changes based on feedback, but I have not yet done a major revision.

New Screens
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Old May 4, 2020, 21:55   #27
Infinitum
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Yeah, still think the fact that most animals tippytoe around is pretty mindblowing. Anyhow, current crop from top to bottom:

First picture: I like the overall feel of the tattered wight (?), although it kind of looks like its Naruto running off to the right what with the arm pose. Have reach out in front of it and it's perfect imo (unless I'm all wrong and its a corpse/whispering shadows or whatnot in which case disregard). I like the staff/herb.

Second: The dragon (?) got oomph to it. Maybe a bit low on detail. Smaug?

Third: I don't like the perspecive not showing the Sword Spider's (?) abdomen at all; lethal daddy longlegs is a bit funky look. Like the serpent composition, although the middle section blurs a bit. Dislike the.. uh.. White Wolf? What's the object in the bottom right supposed to be? I don't think the dynamic poses mesh as well with the sombre overall style you seem to be going for comapred to the slightly stylized ones.

Fourth: Wolf still isn't quite there. Looks like an angry cat hissing what with the arching back, and the front leg looks too long. Maybe if you made it smaller overall, with a straighter back and slightly longer tail compared to body size? Dislike the archer pose, looks like it's firing and leaping midair John Woo style, which again is weirdly dynamic compared with everything else. Love the Grave Wight (or is it a Barrow Wight what with the color? Either way). Don't like the Bloated Spider (?) above the player at all; that perspective just makes it look like a hairy blob. Really like the lantern. Pressure plate (?) looks a bit off.

Fourth: Actually, that shadow spider does pull off the "nightmarish daddy longlegs" look pretty well. Perspective still feels off though. Archer is a bit meh, looks undetailed compared to some of your other stuff and the action bent knee-firing arrow pose again looks a bit too dynamic.

Fifth: Bird looks way better than in your early screens, still not too sure about the overall design though. That thing looks Massive, not like something that flutters through dark hallways. Like the bow and helmet. Is that a spotted web trap? Neat, although I'm not sure about the spider peeking out of it as the little trap blurb mentions it dropping down from the ceiling. Can't tell what the other two things are supposed to be, roosts? Really like the white spider except for the legs; they look a bit spaghetti-like (for lack of a better word) and seem to hoist the spider up a bit too high. The overall pose and body plan is a big improvement over your other spiders though! Likewise for the orc archers, big improvement in pose compared to the others. Maybe the nocked arrows could be angled slightly towards the ground, and the legs looks a bit too meaty compared to the body.

Sixth: Like the Ringraukos overall design, but it'd proably look even better if you angled it slightly to the side? What is the crawly thing to the right of the player, a nameless thing? I like it. Also that bird/bat thing looks great; slap a beak on it and I think it'd be a much better overall fit for the early bird monsters than the one in the fifth picture!

Seventh: A grotesque? Kind of dislike that it looks like its angled directly towards the screen.

Eight: Great Serpent looks great! Would prefer if the head was angled more to the side rather than looking directly at the screen, but the body looks great! Also really like the Gwauthrauko and how it blends into the surrounding darkness, although again it being angled directly towards the screen looks a bit weird imo. Still, great design, feels plenty menacing. Maybe slim it down slightly to increase leg/body ratio (although I do like how massive it loks as well. hmm.)?

Ninth: Serpents are fine. Would prefer if they weren't reskins, and again the middle body could use a little something something. Dislike the werewolves/cat warriors. Head looks weird, and their pose again loks too dynamic, like they're background dancers or something. NOt sure what's going on with the balrog; cannot unsee it being a toddler walking off to the upper right trailing its weapons behind it.

Uh, so looking back most of what I just wrote came off as pretty harsh criticism. Please take it for the random internet opinions that they are; I really like the overall direction you're taking this. Please share more!

Last edited by Infinitum; May 6, 2020 at 20:53.
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Old May 6, 2020, 20:18   #28
MicroChasm
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Thanks again for the feedback, Infinitum. All of the criticism seems fair and I will take it to heart. As with earlier posts I considered addressing each point individually, but I think that it's best to accept the feedback and make change accordingly instead of attempting to justify or explain my decisions. If a tile is unclear or a guess is wrong then I will take that as an indication that perhaps a change needs to be made.

I have to say though, some tiles may always require the player to use the look command. How does one make it visually obvious which creature is a Shadow, a Whispering Shadow, a Wraith, a Spectre, or a Phantom? What does a Lurking Horror look like compared to a Creeping Horror or Unrelenting Horror? Drawing the concept of being unrelenting is like when Kirk Van Houten tries to draw the concept of dignity in the Simpsons. The spiders are in this category as well. But anyway I'm getting on a tangent here, and of course answering these questions is part of the job of making the tiles in the first place.

I will be making changes to the tileset and I plan to keep this forum open to refer to.
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Old May 20, 2020, 14:09   #29
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Hi MicroChasm, I just downloaden the 1.5 beta to try out your amazing tileset. I'm not that familiar with using tilesets though. Whats your recommended way to set it up? (like which tilewidth/height I should use)
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Old May 21, 2020, 03:28   #30
MicroChasm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stokviz View Post
Hi MicroChasm, I just downloaden the 1.5 beta to try out your amazing tileset. I'm not that familiar with using tilesets though. Whats your recommended way to set it up? (like which tilewidth/height I should use)
I'm glad you are taking a look! FYI, Quirk will be releasing an updated Beta version fairly soon. The current version up on the git page does not include many tile updates.

Hopefully the display code can be wrangled and fangled to make the display easier in the future. Let us know what options you would like to see.

For now, here are my personal instructions on the display. Since the tiles are 16x16, which is pretty small, I prefer to play in 32x32.

Go to Window:Font:Sil and set the font to 16x25.fon

Go to Window:Increase Tile Height:Sil

Now do that six more times, for a total of seven times

The "Increase Tile Height" option increases the tile height by one pixel, and setting the font to 16x25.fon sets the pixel size to 25x32. So 25+7=32, and you get a sweet, clean 32x32 pixel setup. Ideally, if my instructions are correct.

Some troubleshooting: In the current version switching back and forth between ASCII and tiles changes the aspect ratio, which can be fixed by switching back to ASCII and back to tiles once again.

If you get a blank screen you can try moving in any direction to redraw the screen, or press ctrl+r to do the same. If neither of those work then saving and exiting the game then re-starting should fix it.

Good luck and have fun!
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