[3.3.0] opinions and comments

[Derakon]

"Enhancing" the stat-swap potions in the manner you describe amounts to making the stat drain aspect of the game less interesting. Monsters with stat drain attacks aren't as much fun to deal with because their attacks can be more easily dealt with.

Remember, "making X more useful" amounts to "making the game easier", unless the reason X is more useful is because the thing it acts against has been made more threatening. And we're trying very hard to not make the game easier right now.

As for the time element, it's far from the only unresistable attack in the game. Gravity, inertia, water, force, ice, mana, etc. are all unresistable. Personally I'm in favor of a game in which even a perfectly kitted-out player has things they have to worry about.

[Xaxyx]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Except that it is time we are talking about. How do you resist time? There is no protection because it doesn't make any sense to have any. In fact time should make permanent damage, not just drain things. Maybe allow saving throw, but that's all.

You didn't just play the Common Sense card, did you? In Angband? Nexus can exchange your 18 strength with your 3 charisma. rNexus prevents this. Yet how can anyone truly resist The Nexus™?! It'll eat your eyes! Booga booga!

rTime resists Time. If that's too brutish, then allow each of the components of Time effects to be resisted by the appropriate protection, much like side effects of other high-level attacks are resisted as appropriate (stun, confusion, etc). If the Time effect would drain experience, and you have Hold Life, then it doesn't, or it's reduced, as usual. If the Time effect would drain stats, and you have sustain on some or all of your stats, then the Time effect is similarly diminished and/or prevented.

[Xaxyx]

Originally Posted by Derakon

"Enhancing" the stat-swap potions in the manner you describe amounts to making the stat drain aspect of the game less interesting. Monsters with stat drain attacks aren't as much fun to deal with because their attacks can be more easily dealt with.

I would find it more interesting, insofar as that those stat-swap potions that I would have otherwise left on the dungeon floor to rot -- or squelch altogether -- are now items that I might consider snagging and sticking in my vault for a while. I'd still be just as loathe to engage with monsters that drain stats, as those consumables are still limited and hard to come by. But at least I'd have the additional option on how to deal with the hardship. Nowadays, my only recourse is to ignore it and stumble along until the next experience level. How is that more interesting than my suggestion?

Originally Posted by Derakon

Remember, "making X more useful" amounts to "making the game easier", unless the reason X is more useful is because the thing it acts against has been made more threatening. And we're trying very hard to not make the game easier right now.

Then increase the frequency and/or efficacy of stat-drain effects accordingly. As it stands now, though, I won't engage with such creatures at all since I have no way at all to ameliorate the damage that they cause me. Whereas, if I had tucked away a potion or three, I might run in there, knowing that I can fix myself up after the fight. Sound familiar? That's precisely the opportunity the Potion of Restore Life Levels provides. And you can buy those from the store.

Originally Posted by Derakon

As for the time element, it's far from the only unresistable attack in the game. Gravity, inertia, water, force, ice, mana, etc. are all unresistable. Personally I'm in favor of a game in which even a perfectly kitted-out player has things they have to worry about.

It similarly irks me that gravity and inertia are irresistible, as that's basically instant death for no particularly good reason for players who walk down a staircase into a dark room with a pack of those critters just out of sight range. The other attacks are largely just angry damage effects, with side effects that are ameliorated by the appropriate resistances. They're also extremely rare, mainly coming from really nasty unique critters in deep dungeon levels that deserve to have really angry attacks. But gravity and inertia are found on common monsters, in pretty high dungeon levels, in gigantic, fast-moving swarms. If these packs must persist in existing in this game -- personally I'd eliminate them entirely -- then at least make it possible to have some tiny crumb of survivability, I would purport. Really, when's the last time you actually fought a pack of gravity or inertia hounds of any size? Heck, when's the last time you even killed one by itself? What's the point of having monsters in the dungeon that no one would ever fight for any reason?

[Derakon]

I fight gravity, inertia, and time hounds all the time. Not when they first start showing up, but once I can kill one before the next comes around (and ideally, kill one before it gets a turn on me), fighting them is not a huge risk -- if they're between me and where I want to go, then it's worth taking them on.

Don't underestimate the value of monsters you don't want to fight. Wandering badasses prevent you from going everywhere you want to go. This is a good thing. Otherwise the player would just be mindlessly pinging between loci of interest without worrying about what's in-between.

[fizzix]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Except that it is time we are talking about. How do you resist time? There is no protection because it doesn't make any sense to have any. In fact time should make permanent damage, not just drain things. Maybe allow saving throw, but that's all.

Interesting. I could get behind Time doing less damage but permanently draining a single stat (or EXP). I would definitely chuck the drain all stats option in this scenario. I like time having really bad side-effects. I don't like that it's also an efficient damager.

I think we need a hound that breathes something irresistable (the elements?) for 100 damage or so. These are insta-death hounds in groups, but they would be handleable one on one. Right now time hounds fill that role, but I'd rather have time be an interesting mechanic without it being so damaging to HP as well.

Anyway, as to some of the points mentioned in the thread. Draining XP to restore stats is a loophole that will probably be closed soon. In fact, If no one else gets to it before me, I'll certainly do it before the next release. Mushrooms of vigor won't be that bad if we introduce drop profiles where you know that to get the mushrooms you just need to find a death mold and kill it.

[Estie]

Not that I particularly like the "element" time in its current form, but unresistable damage types add to the game. Just because some elements follow a certain pattern doesnt mean all have to. Some things can be resisted partly; others have to be avoided, totally. Both aspects exist and removing one of them would make the game poorer.

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Xaxyx

You didn't just play the Common Sense card, did you? In Angband? Nexus can exchange your 18 strength with your 3 charisma. rNexus prevents this. Yet how can anyone truly resist The Nexus™?! It'll eat your eyes! Booga booga!

That's just matter conversion. Easy to do. There is certain level of suspension of belief that you shouldn't pass. Even in fantasy game like this.

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Derakon

I fight gravity, inertia, and time hounds all the time. Not when they first start showing up, but once I can kill one before the next comes around (and ideally, kill one before it gets a turn on me), fighting them is not a huge risk -- if they're between me and where I want to go, then it's worth taking them on.

Inertia hounds are not huge problem if you are faster than them. Gravity only slightly more dangerous if you manage to weaken the pack enough and again are a lot faster than them. Time, OTOH are dangerous just because they hurt quite a bit, drain stats thru sustains and move at speed +20. I find avoiding time hound justified just because of that draining, the fact that they can kill you makes the case quite a lot stronger.

I think clear hounds do not respect pack AI, I think time hounds should not do that either. They are a lot more dangerous if you can't control their movements so easily.