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Old April 15, 2014, 21:05   #21
BlueFish
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Certainly didn't mean to imply that I was the voice of the community. It's long been established that not many agree with me about much.

I think for this, whatever status quo had been initially presented would have been accepted by players without complaint. Between those two equally accepted possibilities, I believe the original intent of the code where perception actions were significantly easier, would be a more fun and less frustrating game. I gave examples above about how certain elements of frustration and tedium would be minimized by fixing this bug.

You can't compare perception investment with melee. There's a reason one tops out at 10 and the other tops out at 20. Perception is meant to be an ancillary utility skill. Not something to base a build on or to invest heavily in, unless one wants to play a novelty build.
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Old April 15, 2014, 22:24   #22
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Originally Posted by BlueFish View Post
You can't compare perception investment with melee. There's a reason one tops out at 10 and the other tops out at 20. Perception is meant to be an ancillary utility skill. Not something to base a build on or to invest heavily in, unless one wants to play a novelty build.
??? I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've bought more than 20 points in Melee before, I don't think there's a cap on any of the skills.

Yes, it's a skill that doesn't directly defeat enemies unless you buy Focused Attack or something. It already doesn't get as much investment as the attack skills, usually less than even other "utility skills" like Song and Will. You think it should be made even less important?
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Old April 15, 2014, 22:41   #23
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Thanks for finding the bug.

We have, I think, balanced somewhat for the actual behaviour (in the years the game was in beta -- I recall making the numbers a little easier at one point). There is some stickiness to choices, however, so it's quite possible that it's still bit harder than it would have been if we'd started with the other behaviour and balanced to fit that.
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Old April 16, 2014, 02:43   #24
BlueFish
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Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
Thanks for finding the bug.

We have, I think, balanced somewhat for the actual behaviour (in the years the game was in beta -- I recall making the numbers a little easier at one point). There is some stickiness to choices, however, so it's quite possible that it's still bit harder than it would have been if we'd started with the other behaviour and balanced to fit that.
Thanks Scatha. I looked at some numbers today and I changed my mind - I agree with everybody else that adding back some difficulty after the fix would be appropriate.

And my previous anecdote about having 9 perception and ignoring chests was either a mistake on my part (at the time) or me misremembering. 9 perception has a non-zero chance of opening every chest in the game, all the way up to level 24 throne room chests. I might have had 6 perception at the time I was ignoring chests, or maybe I was just being stupid by not trying to open them.

I do continue to find the "start in an exitless room" levels to be frustrating and unfun, especially when it happens in a larger room and while I'm looking for my second forge.
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Old April 16, 2014, 02:53   #25
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??? I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've bought more than 20 points in Melee before, I don't think there's a cap on any of the skills.
I mean, the skill requirement of the last ability in the tree. Perception allows you a grace point at 10 and it makes little sense going beyond that.

Quote:
Yes, it's a skill that doesn't directly defeat enemies unless you buy Focused Attack or something. It already doesn't get as much investment as the attack skills, usually less than even other "utility skills" like Song and Will. You think it should be made even less important?
Other than the abilities it allows, Perceptions main "use" is to make the game less annoying or frustrating in several ways. In principle I'm not fond of that sort of "use".
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Old April 16, 2014, 07:56   #26
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I mean, the skill requirement of the last ability in the tree. Perception allows you a grace point at 10 and it makes little sense going beyond that.

Other than the abilities it allows, Perceptions main "use" is to make the game less annoying or frustrating in several ways. In principle I'm not fond of that sort of "use".
We understood you, it is a d10 roll skill, not d20 as the fighting skills. However, you should try seriously high perception (say 30) with listen and the buff abilities once. It is hilarious. You can not only find, but disarm false floors, start hunting rare opponents (green H, red D) to get up the master hunter bonus... and a significant part of your fighting ability depends on your perception skill. You probably can substitute your fighting abilities with perception. I mean it is one skill both for archery and melee
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Old April 17, 2014, 09:38   #27
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The part that annoys me is that I never seem to be able to spot the lock/trap on a chest no matter how many times I search for it. It seems that the Staff is the only way to find them. (?)
They can be found. I spotted a trap on a chest today just stepping on it. 14 Perception.
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Old April 17, 2014, 11:02   #28
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Originally Posted by BlueFish View Post
Thanks Scatha. I looked at some numbers today and I changed my mind - I agree with everybody else that adding back some difficulty after the fix would be appropriate.

And my previous anecdote about having 9 perception and ignoring chests was either a mistake on my part (at the time) or me misremembering. 9 perception has a non-zero chance of opening every chest in the game, all the way up to level 24 throne room chests. I might have had 6 perception at the time I was ignoring chests, or maybe I was just being stupid by not trying to open them.

I do continue to find the "start in an exitless room" levels to be frustrating and unfun, especially when it happens in a larger room and while I'm looking for my second forge.
The problem of not knowing whether you need to spam 'open' a billion times to open a chest or whether it's just outright impossible still remains, though. The number of times a game I do 'r100o' is... well, probably proportional to the number of chests I find.

I also think it's sort of weird that it's seemingly _much_ easier to bash open doors (even at low strength) than it is to wile them open. I get that from a gameplay perspective, bashing creates noise and wrecks the door and is thus strictly inferior to lockpicking, so making it easier is fair. It just seems odd that doors in angband should be so easily smashable but not so easily trickable. It's the fortress to end all fortresses!
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Old April 17, 2014, 18:15   #29
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I spotted a trap on a chest today just stepping on it. 14 Perception.
OK, good to know. My chars have been stopping at 7 perception (Loremastery); I guess that's just not enough.
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Old April 17, 2014, 18:33   #30
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14 total to clarify. I strangely enough only have 4 pts in it. It's a high grace finarfin with a couple of item boosts.

In regards to whether making opening doors easier deflates the value of perception I'd probably be more inclined to invest in perception if unlocking doors was easier. It seems most people only take perception to grab abilities (lore-master or listen) or to stack focus/bane/concentration/hunter bonuses. It's currently a little too expensive to invest just for doors/traps & not particularly reliable an escape when cornered with a locked door or secret passage.

I'm still curious to clarify whether eye for detail works for unlocking doors/disarming traps or just for "spotting" them, as the description reads:

Eye for Detail
• Gives you a bonus of +5 to perception rolls for finding traps and secret doors.

Nothing about opening/disarming there.
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