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Old September 4, 2012, 11:09   #21
half
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The old charge really came into its own against high protection enemies - serpents and grotesques (and Uldor!) come to mind. Whereas stealthy stabbers can overcome serpents at least with high criticals it is more of a challenge to other builds. I've mentioned to Scatha, that I am finding smiths particularly troublesome. The old charge was powerful enough to compensate for all the XP pumped into smithing, without it life is a lot harder.
This does seem to be good evidence that the old Charge was distorting the game too much.

Regarding serpents, we've made them slightly erratic (25%) and have lowered the protection on the ancient ones to [6d4]. This will make them slightly easier.
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:32   #22
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This does seem to be good evidence that the old Charge was distorting the game too much.
I agree that it was probably too powerful, but my concern is that (non-archer) smiths, may now be very hard to build. Smiths do not get powerful until the late game when their smithing is high enough to forge great artefacts. Before that point you are just trying to build a character that can survive whilst trying to assemble as many smithing items as possible. In an ideal world I would probably build a character and then pump smithing, but with the forge 'smoothing' you are at risk of missing too many forges along the way (admittedly I don't know how this works though!).
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:35   #23
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There is no good reason for this really. Both are mentioned as weapons in the works of Tolkien, but tridents are very specialised, so they are really just there for flavour.
Ooh, interesting! Where are tridents mentioned?
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Old September 4, 2012, 11:50   #24
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I agree that it was probably too powerful, but my concern is that (non-archer) smiths, may now be very hard to build. Smiths do not get powerful until the late game when their smithing is high enough to forge great artefacts. Before that point you are just trying to build a character that can survive whilst trying to assemble as many smithing items as possible. In an ideal world I would probably build a character and then pump smithing, but with the forge 'smoothing' you are at risk of missing too many forges along the way (admittedly I don't know how this works though!).
My experience with smiths is that I generally found 0-1 forges between 200' and 800'. What if you find one every 100' now? Wouldn't the things you incrementally build make it a bit easier than you suggest?

I do think the days of making a character with 6+ artefacts are over. However, if there is a way to still do that, I'm sure you'll find it :P
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Old September 4, 2012, 12:31   #25
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Ooh, interesting! Where are tridents mentioned?
Ulmo's one is what I'm thinking of. There might be others.
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Old September 4, 2012, 12:39   #26
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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I agree that it was probably too powerful, but my concern is that (non-archer) smiths, may now be very hard to build. Smiths do not get powerful until the late game when their smithing is high enough to forge great artefacts. Before that point you are just trying to build a character that can survive whilst trying to assemble as many smithing items as possible. In an ideal world I would probably build a character and then pump smithing, but with the forge 'smoothing' you are at risk of missing too many forges along the way (admittedly I don't know how this works though!).
We'll see how it goes. It is hard to work this out a priori. If smithing needs to be improved, then we should probably do that through the difficulty settings for items rather than through Charge.

As for the forge smoothing, the general frequency of forges (other than in vaults) is halved. However, if you haven't had one generated for a few thousand turns there is a chance that one will be guaranteed on the next level. This reaches a 100% chance after 5,000 turns without a forge being generated, so at least 6 forges should be generated in a full game. In terms of the late game, you are unlikely to see more than 1 of these bonus forges, so you will roughly get half as many late-game forges.

One consequence of all these changes is that it may not be as good to make meta-smithing artefacts as it was. I think gloves of the forge will still be smart though. Ultimately we'll have to see how it plays.
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Old September 4, 2012, 13:28   #27
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Congrats on this incredibly well-wrought looking release---though I can't help but find it amusing that if you'd held it just a tad longer it could've landed for ARRP 2012!
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Old September 4, 2012, 13:44   #28
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My experience with smiths is that I generally found 0-1 forges between 200' and 800'. What if you find one every 100' now? Wouldn't the things you incrementally build make it a bit easier than you suggest?
Not for me. With smithing there is a breakpoint at 12 where you can make the rather desirable Round shield of Deflection [+2,1d3] and at 13 where you make =Accuracy(+2). After that You just want to get smithing as high as possible for making artefacts. With smithing times now so long, you cannot afford to waste time on stuff of limited use.

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We'll see how it goes. It is hard to work this out a priori. If smithing needs to be improved, then we should probably do that through the difficulty settings for items rather than through Charge.
Agreed.
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As for the forge smoothing, the general frequency of forges (other than in vaults) is halved. However, if you haven't had one generated for a few thousand turns there is a chance that one will be guaranteed on the next level. This reaches a 100% chance after 5,000 turns without a forge being generated, so at least 6 forges should be generated in a full game. In terms of the late game, you are unlikely to see more than 1 of these bonus forges, so you will roughly get half as many late-game forges.
Ah ok, I thought the chances of generating forges was reduced the more forges you saw - similar to artefact generation. In which case I don't need to worry about skipping forges. Maybe the optimum strategy will be just to play a character through until the mid-to-late game and if they get lucky with _Revelations convert to smithing?
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One consequence of all these changes is that it may not be as good to make meta-smithing artefacts as it was. I think gloves of the forge will still be smart though. Ultimately we'll have to see how it plays.
If that is the case then smithing scores will come right down which coupled with all the increased costs may make smithing a bit pointless. You need to be able to make kit considerably better than the standard artefacts to make up for the 20k+ XP invested in the smithing skill. But as you say, we'll see how it plays.
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Old September 4, 2012, 14:02   #29
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On windows XP, the windows for damage rolls, equipment and such are empty. I'm sure this didn't happen before. Otherwise, congratulations on the release!
Also, Nick, time for a competition, right?
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Old September 4, 2012, 14:05   #30
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Ah, congrats on the release!

I think charge has done a good job of bringing axes to the early game. I often see the -3, 3d4 ax crop up early in the game and wonder, who can actually use that thing at this point? My dwarves usually wear longswords up to 500' just to hit reliably, but now charge+axe breaks out their early game warrior potential.
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