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Old September 21, 2015, 08:29   #21
Mikko Lehtinen
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Having to make meaningful tactical trap-related decisions make you pay more attention to traps. That increases flavour, I find, if traps are interesting and believable.
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Old September 21, 2015, 09:06   #22
mushroom patch
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Originally Posted by Tarrasque View Post
Boredom is risky, but in-game the more tediously and carefully you play (rest, detect monsters, repeat, grind at DLevel 1 to CLevel 50) the less risk you're in at any one moment.
This is not at all what people mean when they say you never have to take risks in angband. What they mean is that with careful play (which absolutely includes spamming detection -- and if you don't use detection consistently, you're bad at this game, sorry) you will never be surprised by what happens and you will never be in a position where you cannot easily avoid dying.

Careful play does not mean scumming level 1, it means identifying threats before they can affect you (for example, consistent use of detection), correct decision making about what is worth fighting and/or picking up, and use of spells and items in ways that do not leave you vulnerable (e.g. teleporting within a level when you have woken up dangerous monsters elsewhere would be a case of leaving yourself vulnerable through misuse of items).

In my opinion, lingering at shallow depths has a problem of "too many moving parts" and slow accumulation of useful items. This is one of the primary problems of angband: It is natural for moderately experienced players to conclude that the "safe" or "conservative" strategy is to slowly build up by clearing levels at relatively low depths. That's what you would think based on experience with almost every other CRPG. Since angband players essentially never see each other play, they get caught in this pattern. They don't know anything else through actual game experience! So you see suggestions like "well, if you're one of those crazy careful players who scums 50 ft. until xp level 50..."
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Old September 21, 2015, 13:11   #23
Tarrasque
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Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
This is not at all what people mean when they say you never have to take risks in angband. What they mean is that with careful play (which absolutely includes spamming detection -- and if you don't use detection consistently, you're bad at this game, sorry) you will never be surprised by what happens and you will never be in a position where you cannot easily avoid dying.

Careful play does not mean scumming level 1, it means identifying threats before they can affect you (for example, consistent use of detection), correct decision making about what is worth fighting and/or picking up, and use of spells and items in ways that do not leave you vulnerable (e.g. teleporting within a level when you have woken up dangerous monsters elsewhere would be a case of leaving yourself vulnerable through misuse of items).

In my opinion, lingering at shallow depths has a problem of "too many moving parts" and slow accumulation of useful items. This is one of the primary problems of angband: It is natural for moderately experienced players to conclude that the "safe" or "conservative" strategy is to slowly build up by clearing levels at relatively low depths. That's what you would think based on experience with almost every other CRPG. Since angband players essentially never see each other play, they get caught in this pattern. They don't know anything else through actual game experience! So you see suggestions like "well, if you're one of those crazy careful players who scums 50 ft. until xp level 50..."
Who said I walk around where there might be a trap? My suggestion for trap detection is meant to be on the conservative side, reducing tedium without having to change traps at all or even increase the average area you cover with each cast.

If I go in one direction for a while I'm probably not trying to fight something. So in addition to having to cast detect traps more often in fewer turns the turns take less time IRL and aren't as interesting since there's more running down corridors and less combat. Covering less area per cast when staying in one area won't be too bothersome because the time between detections will probably be broken up by combat or going through items or whatever.

The average area one detects per cast doesn't have to be kept the same though. That was me trying to be conservative. The spell could last long enough so that a cast usually detects at least the same area as now even when you spend turns standing in one spot for a while. I don't feel like detecting traps is super tedious, I think I'd only adjust it so I had to cast it around half as often. I'd increase its mana cost a little bit too.

I mentioned Sil beacause my initial thought was how It might be interesting to have a very small MP pool used for continuous effects so you would have to pick and choose which spells you're casting. I made a less radical proposal instead. Limited duration spells instead of continuous effects while keeping traps and magic as close as possible to the way they are now.

Level 50 at 50' was obvious hyperbole. I'm not the borg. Tedious play (especially when it's repetitive, boring, easy, obvious, or frequent) being less risky is a negative. I know what you mean when you say you don't have to take risks in angband I said I like games that make you have to deal with unfavorable (but not impossible) situations. I clear vaults while feeling plenty safe with a wand of TO. Spamming detect traps and scumming low levels are contrasting examples of what I think is tedious. I don't think I dive (though that imaginary crazy careful player might think I do). In my current game my CLevel is 26 and my max depth is level 44 (I actually slowed my descent recently, but I'm on my way further down again right now). I'm not scumming super shallow levels, except, occasionally, for potions of speed (why are they so common at 50 ft?)
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Old September 21, 2015, 15:18   #24
quarague
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I just wanted to mention brogue for some inspiration/ idea stealing.
Brogue traps have no guaranteed way of detection but there are ways to improve you chance of seeing them and you can search for them, if you want to.
Brogue also has different terrain types like: chasm (can be floated over with special items or jumped down), water (can be swum through but makes you loose items), lava (can be floated over but is otherwise deadly), bushes (block like of sight but are destroyed when walked over)
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Old September 21, 2015, 17:47   #25
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Originally Posted by quarague View Post
I just wanted to mention brogue for some inspiration/ idea stealing.
Brogue traps have no guaranteed way of detection but there are ways to improve you chance of seeing them and you can search for them, if you want to.
Brogue also has different terrain types like: chasm (can be floated over with special items or jumped down), water (can be swum through but makes you loose items), lava (can be floated over but is otherwise deadly), bushes (block like of sight but are destroyed when walked over)
I was going to mention Brogue- also for the puzzle room traps. if you haven't played, Brogue has treasure vaults on some levels that require a key to enter. The key is in another room on the level, and picking up the key often triggers something bad to happen, like a torch falling off the wall onto flammable terrain or the room flooding. In these cases the nature of the trap can often be guessed, and the effects can be deadly. However, the rewards are often very good. I'd rate it high both for flavor and for tactical interest.
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Old September 21, 2015, 23:10   #26
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How would you feel about having some traps that are invisible until you move next to them? Then it is your choice whether to continue moving into that square or do something else, but it's still an unexpected surprise.
The thought has occurred to me that if all traps become visible and magical detection is removed, there's the choice of whether to make traps detected by mapping, clairvoyance, etc. If the answer to that is no, then the player will only discover traps on coming into LOS of them, which seems reasonable.
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Old September 22, 2015, 01:21   #27
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You should add orc peons to the dungeon, and let them upgrade the arrow traps to more powerful ballista towers if they spend enough turns next to them. "Job's done!"
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Old September 22, 2015, 02:22   #28
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You should add orc peons to the dungeon, and let them upgrade the arrow traps to more powerful ballista towers if they spend enough turns next to them. "Job's done!"
All joking aside, I think a roguelike that had the player as a hero unit trying to infiltrate and take down RTS bases is a concept that shows promise. If you got detected too soon of course you wouldn't stand a chance against the base's forces, so you'd have to sneak around committing little acts of sabotage until the base is weak enough for you to be more overt.

Not really suited to Angband though.
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Old September 22, 2015, 22:26   #29
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I would be totally against any system that requires mages to manually deal with traps. They've spent their lives trying to learn to do everything with magic instead of their hands.
I think for mages it should be a little like melee - they don't plan to, but sometimes choosing to is the best option.

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Avoiding the problem is a good substitute for disarming it, but you could also have a temporary magic jam on the trap that prevents it triggering.

Priests would be requesting their deity gives them a temporary increase in their skill to disarm or avoid the trap, I feel.
Yes, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Any other opinions for or against my proposed system?
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Old September 22, 2015, 22:36   #30
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I don't think that magic should be a straightforward bypass of traps. Why should mages not have to deal with traps when other classes do? The only class with a clear bias towards having an easy time with traps is the rogue.

I mean, I'm not opposed to giving mages some kind of toolkit to help them cope with traps, since their entire shtick is "horribly weak, but has spells to help out". But it shouldn't just be "cast this spell to make traps irrelevant" unless we can find some way to make that interesting. Unfortunately I'm short on ideas right now.
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