V Mage is too powerful in the endgame.

[Pete Mack]

saru--it is only one spell that does such extreme damage per turn; the other spells aren't nearly so unbalanced. Punishing players who don't double down on higher resists seems a bad way to go. (Currently, ONLY Mana storm does more than 275 damage to a fully buffed player with all resists.)

[Saru]

I assume you're referring to the suggestion of increased player damage from fastcast? Now that I think about it that could be rather annoying; back to the drawing board I guess....

I was under the assumption people had more of a problem with fastcast rather than manastorm, sorry for misunderstanding!

[Zane314]

How about if, when Fastcast ends, the player is Muted for ~10 rounds and can't cast spells?

Then you get players less willing to abuse the power of Fastcast if it's in a long fight scenario, but it's still useful as a "oh crap I need short term power" move. And smart mages can supplement their muted turns with devices.

[Bogatyr]

Originally Posted by Zane314

How about if, when Fastcast ends, the player is Muted for ~10 rounds and can't cast spells?

Then you get players less willing to abuse the power of Fastcast if it's in a long fight scenario, but it's still useful as a "oh crap I need short term power" move. And smart mages can supplement their muted turns with devices.

Ugh, why would I as a mage ever want to do anything that will prevent me from casting spells?! I wouldn't, ever. I'd just not use it. I'd rather fights take longer than risking requiring an escape that I can't use when muted. I'd rather have the old haste self back, which is self-limiting in strength towards the end game as speed items are acquired.

Predictably, all the fun new things I've found with 4.2.0 with mages are being nerfed :/. Mages pay a heavy price of having to play very carefully/slowly and tip-toeing around in the early/middle game. There should be a benefit for that cost.

Mages are masters of magical power, the storing and usage of it. I think the 4.2.0 recharge/tap and magical device bonus should be kept as is for those. And for heavens sake don't nerf dimension door now that you've hooked me on it.

[Huqhox]

Originally Posted by Saru

Perhaps there could be a % chance fast cast would deactivate whenever the mage sustained damage, with the chance being higher for more damage?

How about ending it if the caster takes any damage at all? That way when you hit a room full of nasties or a vault, you can fastcast to get a few battlefield control spells off and maybe a couple of attacking spells but that's it. It would still be useful but may not be overpowered since any reasonably tough opponent or situation is likely to be able to damage the caster reasonably quickly

[Pete Mack]

That makes fast cast useless unless you hockey stick. It is not giod incentivizing. On stunning and disenchantment attacks, sure. But the main problem is Mana Storm has damage way beyond any other spell. Cut its damage and mana by 40% and the problem largely goes away.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

To my mind, Mages are supposed to be super-powerful in the end-game. It is the compensation for the huge difficulty in keeping them alive to get to that point.

[Bogatyr]

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron

To my mind, Mages are supposed to be super-powerful in the end-game. It is the compensation for the huge difficulty in keeping them alive to get to that point.

Thank you. Yes.

[Saru]

I for one agree that it both makes gameplay (balances out weak start/midgame) and logical sense for mages to be this powerful. (I mean, a mage in my mind has so much more than potential than a warrior or ranger -- hitting them with magic, or a sword / arrow. Magic seems like it should outclass these options in the end.

[Grotug]

Originally Posted by Derakon

It sounds like the bottom line here is "being able to throw out spells super quickly is OP." Which should not be surprising as we've known for years that rangers with extra shots are super-powered. To clamp down on this you'll either need to slow casting down, or make sure that mages can't sustain fast casting for long. Some possible ideas:

* Remove fast cast if the player moves for any reason.
* Spells cast under fast cast drain mana 2x (or 3x, etc. whatever feels right), and any form of mana recovery removes the buff.
* Fast cast drains X% (10%?) of your mana per turn while it is active.
* Fast casting temporarily reduces your INT (or, more mercifully, your max mana), with the amount of reduction increasing as long as fast cast is active and gradually recovering when it is not.
* The degree to which fast cast increases casting speed starts out small, increases with each turn spent casting a spell, and resets if you do any non-spellcasting action.

I think the first or last suggestion on this list are pretty appealing. #2 seems pretty reasonable as well.

I also do not like the idea of removing device skill bonus. A mage should be able to do well using magical devices (duh?). Logical support for this aside, I also prefer devices being a good way to do damage.

Originally Posted by Philip

I can't imagine it would change the problem with Mages as it is outlined in the original post?

The first change seems like a great way to discourage Mages from using devices at all (other than as mana batteries), but their current power seems to derive more from regular spellcasting. Personally I think mages should be encouraged to use devices, but that's a personal preference. If it will affect Mages, it will be in the early game, before you can reliably run fastcast, when groups of monsters can tax your mana very heavily. If the problem is that mages are too powerful in the endgame, removing their early game crutch doesn't seem correct.

My experience playing 4.2.0 Mage was that it was overpowered across the board (early, mid, and late) game, not just late game. The recharge spell would often add 20+ charges to high value wands like slow monster.