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Old July 16, 2007, 20:05   #11
Nolendil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
re: Distributing spoilers with Angband
Well, people don't have to read them if they don't want. I think the name is quite explicit but maybe adding a big warning on "spoiler.hlp" (like the first paragraph on your spoiler page) would be nice too so that people know what they are doing.
If putting a default "spoiler.hlp" file with a link seems like a good idea, maybe we shouldn't bother about license and go for it. It took me some time to find the spoilers when I started playing Angband (I thought for a long time that my distribution was incomplete since you only get a "file not found" kind of error when trying to read them). And even now, I regularly lose the URL of your site (thanks for posting here or I might have not noticed the update for years ). Being able to find them easily without being a newsgroup or forum addict is my first concern.
I hope Andrew will consider this.

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Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
re: link to spoilers in download section
Oops, right. But I expected to see them on the "Download" tab in the "Extra files" section.
Don't know if adding a link there is needed either. It's up to Pav to decide.

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Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
re: Open Source Initiative
Ok, I understand your lack of time. Real Life© is such a waste of time
And I also believe it would be even harder to find the people who contributed to spoilers than those who contributed to the code.

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Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
re: Rewriting and updating outdated files
It's nice to hear that you plan to update even more spoilers. Your current work will be very interesting to read.
I'm not sure I could contribute much, I was more thinking about rephrasing the old spoilers than really changing them, which means no knowledge would be needed. Maybe, I'll have a look to see if a file would be appropriate for this kind of task but no promise, I have loads of professional and personal projects crawling on my todo list (including making a OpenGL hexagonal roguelike ).
Concerning the strategy guide, I can't do much either as I'm probably a worse player than you (no win in about 10 years)
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Old July 16, 2007, 20:32   #12
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I'd say trying to slap a software license on a article of text is quite silly, and legally totally bogus. So, as long as you respect the usual copyright that applies to books or magazine articles, you're just fine.
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Old July 16, 2007, 22:16   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pav View Post
I'd say trying to slap a software license on a article of text is quite silly, and legally totally bogus. So, as long as you respect the usual copyright that applies to books or magazine articles, you're just fine.
I don't see that the GPL would be unreasonable for written text, really, given that the source is simply the text file itself, and it keeps compatibility with the sources in case text was ever imported.

That said, I'm starting to favour a less restrictive copyleft thesedays...
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Old July 16, 2007, 23:36   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
That said, I'm starting to favour a less restrictive copyleft thesedays...
For the spoiler files, I don't really care much - as far as I'm concerned, they can be redistributed, modified, and quoted from at will with just a few basic constraints: I want to be acknowledged as (partial, in some cases) author, modified versions should be marked as modified, and unmodified versions should not be sold for money.

Maybe I should add some notice to this extent to the files, but I'm afraid of stepping in a legal snakepit. Since the spoilers are merely describing the mechanics of Angband, they can hardly be called an original work, so I'm afraid that whether we want it or not, the Angband licensing terms do apply anyway. But maybe someone with more background in legal, copyright, and license issues than me (that is, someone with any background in those matters ) can chime in and clariify whether I'm right or wrong here.

Things might get even more complicated for the spoiler files generated by the game, or for those that I create by merely filtering or sorting a generated spoiler file
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Old July 16, 2007, 23:47   #15
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A book on a software product or on a commercial game is surely a copyright work by it's author - not a derivative of the game, and is not licensed same as the game.

I don't see why your spoilers should be any different - they actually not contain any code copy-pasted from Angband.

Software licenses like GPL only cover the rights and restriction for using the software. They have little meaning to the source, if it's never executed. Even less meaning to the text files.

The software documentation is not covered by GPL or other software license, but by your usual copyright _only_. Copyright != license. A lot of people miss this subtle difference.
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Old July 17, 2007, 03:16   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pav View Post
I don't see why your spoilers should be any different - they actually not contain any code copy-pasted from Angband.
Part of the concern here, perhaps, is the fact that some of the spoilers were made from code copy-pasted from Angband. Things like the monster info, artifact info, etc are automatically generated by the program, not written by Hugo or anyone else.

I'd put a line in the spoilers along the lines of "I, the author of these spoiler files, do not object to them being distributed as long as [Hugo's previously stated criteria are met].", rather than "I allow them to be distributed under [some license]". But then again, I know little more than anyone about these matters.
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Old July 17, 2007, 04:54   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
Part of the concern here, perhaps, is the fact that some of the spoilers were made from code copy-pasted from Angband. Things like the monster info, artifact info, etc are automatically generated by the program, not written by Hugo or anyone else.
Auto-generated things are copyright the same way that the edit files are, since they're essentially derivative works, displaying the same information in a different way. Thus, I believe the GPL or Angband licences would apply to them.
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Old July 17, 2007, 21:40   #18
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HINT : Skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to bother with useless licensing debate

I don't exactly see how the help files could be distributed under the GPL (as I assume they will) and not the spoilers.
However, The GNU Free Documentation License might be more appropriate.

Hugo, I think stating that "unmodified versions should not be sold for money" might cause trouble with the GPL and more generally about allowing them to be distributed with Angband (e.g. when a Linux distribution is sold, which is allowed, you will be allowed to include Angband - when it is finally GPLed - but not the spoilers).
I myself have trouble about this kind of clause as I wouldn't like personal projects to be sold by companies for profit but still allow people to distribute them with a reasonable fee to cover the service. The Parallels/Wine incident made me think about fair use of open source projects in commercial products and I can't say I'm really satisfied with how GPL works.

A bit off topic, the GPL v3 has been released.
Andrew, you might want to consider it for the Open Source Initiative.
As it's not compatible with version 2 and as I don't know if the Open Source Initiative asked for which version people agreed to release their contribution, it might (or not) cause legal troubles and you probably don't want to go through all the process again.
Maybe it would have been better to ask people to give you the right to choose whatever license as long as it meets some criteria but it's too late to complain.


Anyway, I have only read small parts of these licenses and still don't understand a lot about them or copyrights. I don't know what are the bad sides of each but I know there are.
In the end, I don't really care about the spoiler license (sorry for bringing up the topic in the first place ). What I'd really want is a way to find them easily.
So, what about putting the suggested dummy "spoiler.hlp" file with the link to Hugo's site until the license question is resolved or dropped?

Last edited by Nolendil; July 17, 2007 at 21:53. Reason: Corrections
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Old July 17, 2007, 21:51   #19
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GPLv3 is like a huge step in the wrong direction. We fear it.

I hope takka was clever enough to seek permission to relicense the code under "GPLv2 and newer", as is customary. Then there's no issue with GPLv3, you can use Angband under it if you want. Only if you would want to strip users out of priviledges that GPLv3 forbids and GPLv2 allows, you'd have to do the whole hoopla again.
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Old July 17, 2007, 23:49   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolendil View Post
HINT : Skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to bother with useless licensing debate

I don't exactly see how the help files could be distributed under the GPL (as I assume they will) and not the spoilers.
However, The GNU Free Documentation License might be more appropriate.
The GFDL is intended for written/published material. The current help files are licenced under the GPL/Angband licences, since that is the licence of the whole distribution. Leon Marrick's help files are under a copyleft licence which I'm not amazingly fond of... I don't know what to do here, really. I would like the docs under the GPL, really.

Quote:
A bit off topic, the GPL v3 has been released.
Andrew, you might want to consider it for the Open Source Initiative.
I asked for GPLv2 or later. Everyone gave permission under those terms, but I'm not sure *I* want to... there are questions over the Freeness of the GPLv3, and I've not had any chance to read it fully yet.

Quote:
Anyway, I have only read small parts of these licenses and still don't understand a lot about them or copyrights. I don't know what are the bad sides of each but I know there are.
In the end, I don't really care about the spoiler license (sorry for bringing up the topic in the first place ). What I'd really want is a way to find them easily.
So, what about putting the suggested dummy "spoiler.hlp" file with the link to Hugo's site until the license question is resolved or dropped?
I'm happy just to leave a link on the front page, and possibly a link in the accompanying documentation, really.
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