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Old October 22, 2014, 15:22   #21
mushroom patch
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Also, the ~ menu thing is a great tip. I didn't know about that until now.
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Old October 22, 2014, 16:40   #22
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Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
I forgot an important bit: In the early game I use rings of teleportation for the speed (I'm not sure if the teleportation hurts or helps on average, but it's not too bad and the speed is big). It seems a lot depends on getting early speed items. A good pair of boots in the early game is huge.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense what you say about speed. 56k action turns isn't that much better than I tend to get. It's the game turns that are way low. Psi had a character that was a stair-scumming victor in under 200k game turns.

@Nick

I clearly said you "push past" other developers, not trample. C'mon now.
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Old October 22, 2014, 17:54   #23
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Interesting link, thanks. When I get a chance to run another character, I think I'll be able to shave off quite a few turns using ~. I wasn't that careful about running around town anyway. I wonder about this comment on the dump you linked:

Quote:
You shouldn't even visit the shops the first time until you have scummed a full pack of consumables from the starting stairs. I don't know how much more tedious that is in 3.1 versus 3.0, but it makes a big difference. For not too many turns, you get significant bonus starting money and awareness of a bunch of flavors and a few !speed in your pack.
I guess this would work. Does this really save a lot of time?

I have to say, in many ways I succumbed to "that's cheap" kind of thinking and refrained from doing some of the more exploitative things I considered. I'll make the next run more mercilessly exploitative.

By the way, have you guys ever considered making the "score"/ladder rank depend heavily on the number of turns taken to win? I think this kind of scoring really works in the crawl community in terms of spurring competition.
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Old October 22, 2014, 18:04   #24
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By the way, have you guys ever considered making the "score"/ladder rank depend heavily on the number of turns taken to win? I think this kind of scoring really works in the crawl community in terms of spurring competition.
Yeah, there has been thoughts along this line. The current ranking is dumb. The problem, as Psi notes in his character, is that Angband is very succeptible to scumming. And while that's fun to do once, it's incredibly tedious and not a great way to play.

I think Psi (or someone else) had another character where they tried to gain the most levels at once. They stair scummed for a longbow and arrows and two-shotted an Erinyes to go from level 1 to level 31. Again, fun once, but super tedious.

Crawl is more immune to scumming since levels are persistent. Similarly, Turncount in ironman or forced-descent is more meaningful than in a game that allows you to stair dance until you get a lucky drop. (another alternative would be to make stairs take some larger number of game turns)
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Old October 22, 2014, 18:06   #25
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Most competitions are using turns as score. Normal ladder using experience originate at times when winners were rare, most characters died before lvl 20 and experience was valid measure of progress.
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Old October 22, 2014, 18:37   #26
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Apply a large malus to score for revisiting levels. For example your score could be something like:

(max depth * 5,000,000) / ((number of standard turns) * (number of levels visited - max depth + 1))

So for example, if it took you 100k standard turns to make it to level 100 and you never revisited a level, then your score would be 5000. Doing the same in 200k standard turns would get you 2500. If you did it in 100k turns but you hit each level twice then your score would also be 2500. If you used 5 Scrolls of Deep Descent (each skipping over 4 levels), then your score would get a 20% multiplier.

EDIT: Err...wait, my formula doesn't actually work that way. Well, you could come up with one that does. You get the idea.

The main difficulty with this approach is Word of Recall, which forces revisiting a level unless you have forced-descent turned on. This could be solved, in a way, by selling Scrolls of Deep Descent in the town.
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Old October 22, 2014, 21:54   #27
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One approach would be to introduce a bunch of different scores, and see which worked best.

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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I clearly said you "push past" other developers, not trample. C'mon now.
The only inaccuracy with the original, I thought
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Old October 22, 2014, 22:41   #28
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One approach would be to introduce a bunch of different scores, and see which worked best.
Why not go meta-roguelike and randomize the score mechanic on a per turn basis.
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Old October 22, 2014, 22:55   #29
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Nick hits you. You feel strange... your score is now based on the number of Slime Molds in your home!
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Old October 22, 2014, 23:26   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Apply a large malus to score for revisiting levels. For example your score could be something like:
(...)
... or we could just give everyone a score of 1000. It'd still be about as relevant to anyone's enjoyment of the game itself .

(Yes, I think "Score" should be removed. Instead have multiple axes like there already are with "Max Depth", "Max XP", "Deepest Unique Killed", "Number of floors seen/generated", etc. etc. There are so many potentially interesting combinations of these that a single "points" score could never capture even a trivial amount of it.)
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