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Old October 1, 2014, 20:33   #41
wobbly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
Another reasonably elegant possibility in this vicinity would be to merge bastard swords and curved swords, to a (-1, 2d5)[+1] hand-and-a-half weapon. I'm not sure which name they'd want to keep. They'd be on the weak side, though slightly better than the current curved swords, and a decent all-rounder.
I quite like this idea differentiates curved swords from long swords and bastard swords from axes/greatswords a bit more. Also gives a few flakier builds an easier start of they can double hand that starting sword.
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Old October 23, 2014, 16:56   #42
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fwiw:

I've been playing with (-1) greatswords for a while now and I think the accuracy bump completely solves the problem I had. Greatswords have a niche, but bastard swords can still be a competitive two-handed option if you're really accurate, and their versatility is nothing to sneeze at given Sil's limited inventory.

On the whole, I find it creates interesting choices when trying to decide whether to hold on to a greatsword, bastard sword, or both, and it's also very intuitive. Greatswords feel appropriately badass, whereas bastard swords feel like the unorthodox option sometimes favored by the very skilled.

I think it's worth considering in the next version!
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Old October 24, 2014, 11:06   #43
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Originally Posted by bagori nd View Post
I've been playing with (-1) greatswords for a while now and I think the accuracy bump completely solves the problem I had.

I think it's worth considering in the next version!
Thanks for testing this. I'm not yet sure that greatswords aren't good enough, but a change like this one is simple enough that it could plausibly happen without rebalancing all the weapons.

For what its worth, I see greatswords as being mainly useful for characters with Charge, as the +3 strength will often put you above the usable strength on a Bastard Sword. Starting with high strength and/or other Strength bonuses like rings or potions could have the same effect. This use case is clearly narrower since the addition of Momentum and the simplification to how weight and strength interact. However, having an item that lets you skip an ability is a really big advantage -- imagine greatswords like bastard swords that come with a free ability. If I were playing an elf with charge and flanking, I'd want to use greatswords. I'm OK with the use cases being quite narrow since as others have pointed out, it looks like greatswords were a pretty niche weapon historically and were probably out of time period.

(Side note: looking into weapon history a bit more has shown me that we actually know very little about them. For example, it is not fully known what a long sword or a bastard sword was. Some people think 'long swords' describes swords used with two hands, some people think bastard swords were not the same as hand and a half swords etc. One thus shouldn't get *too* hung up on the names or historical accuracy of whether people in middle earth could have plausibly used swords that require two hands etc. So long as it roughly corresponds to weapons we have found being used in the past, or the writings of Tolkien, and so long as the weapon or its name aren't clearly from the wrong culture, I'm pretty OK with it.)
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Old October 25, 2014, 17:05   #44
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Thanks for the reply! I think it makes a lot of sense.
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Originally Posted by half View Post
However, having an item that lets you skip an ability is a really big advantage -- imagine greatswords like bastard swords that come with a free ability.
The only issue I see is that in the long run, lots of people will want Momentum anyway since it's a prerequisite for Strength. Granted, many chargers will prefer Knock-Back anyway, so this might not be a problem. Still, it might be something to think about.
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Old October 25, 2014, 18:16   #45
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If I'm an elf going for charge, I probably want bastard swords and momentum, not greatswords. I'll still get criticals (because b.swords are much lighter), and now that knockback is totally based on strength, I'd rather just minimize weapon weight. I can also put on a shield in one turn without a swap weapon if archers show up.

That is what I really don't like about momentum -- it used to be that strong dudes wanted heavier weapons, which naturally forced you down the power tree. Now it seems like the optimal way to go is always down the finesse tree, regardless of your melee build. Add that to the fact that twohanders probably want rapid attack for the final battle (which is super awkward to get after charge/momentum), and I see very little reason to ever play a two-handed swinger. (Other than fun, which is a pretty good reason!)
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Old October 25, 2014, 20:00   #46
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That is what I really don't like about momentum -- it used to be that strong dudes wanted heavier weapons, which naturally forced you down the power tree. Now it seems like the optimal way to go is always down the finesse tree, regardless of your melee build.
Are other people having this experience?

Momentum was an idea of Scatha's. I think the main purpose was to allow a 'pressure valve' for the Strength limitations on weapons. For example if you are strong but find a great lighter artefact. You pay a price in terms of experience, but aren't as limited. I suppose it was also part of the plan to allow for some new interesting builds that plan on getting it to allow more critical hit / high strength play (he could speak to this better than I can).

When we first added it, people were eager to try it out but didn't quite know when to get it. Now that things have settled down, how are people finding it? We could get rid of it (or make it more expensive or something) if people are finding it too strong.
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Old October 29, 2014, 07:50   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by half View Post
For what its worth, I see greatswords as being mainly useful for characters with Charge, as the +3 strength will often put you above the usable strength on a Bastard Sword. Starting with high strength and/or other Strength bonuses like rings or potions could have the same effect. This use case is clearly narrower since the addition of Momentum and the simplification to how weight and strength interact. However, having an item that lets you skip an ability is a really big advantage -- imagine greatswords like bastard swords that come with a free ability. If I were playing an elf with charge and flanking, I'd want to use greatswords. I'm OK with the use cases being quite narrow since as others have pointed out, it looks like greatswords were a pretty niche weapon historically and were probably out of time period.
It's not exactly a free ability if you're grabbing the str pt. It's between momentum and knock back then and I'd generally prefer the better criticals and greater weapon choice of momemtum. Particularly with fineese. There's also the fact that any 3lber with the double evasion bonus is still a reasonable weight for riposte.
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Old October 29, 2014, 08:27   #48
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Originally Posted by half View Post
When we first added it, people were eager to try it out but didn't quite know when to get it. Now that things have settled down, how are people finding it? We could get rid of it (or make it more expensive or something) if people are finding it too strong.
I see it mainly as an alternative to rapid attack in using excess strength from a strength potion (/ charging bonus) and as the ability to make hammers a viable weapon. But it has the side effect on greatswords / great axes, both instantly looked much more useful again when I played with the no-ability challenge (on a strong Fingolfin).

Finesse / precision reducing "weight" for critical hits by 1 are abilities ppl happily pay xp for. Greatsword / bastard sword of the same damage is thus more like momentum for free as greatsword vs. several times finesse for free as bastard sword.
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Old October 29, 2014, 18:20   #49
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It's also a matter of what stage of the game we're talking about. Early to mid game I can see a 6lb-er with follow through being a decent choice over a 3lb-er with momentum, but late game most of the strong artifact weapons are going to be 3lbers which need momentum. Dramborleg is 5lbs so you can skip momentum and just lose a damage side on the charge, but that's still a hand and a halfer. What true two-hander shines enough to make up for the weight late game?
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Old October 29, 2014, 18:54   #50
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I agree that the power side of things is lackluster and not very appealing. Similarly, low evasion/high protection was made worse in the last version too, all of the monster changes are much easier to deal with high evasion and flanking.

Last edited by clouded; October 29, 2014 at 19:01.
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