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Old November 20, 2017, 06:29   #51
Mocht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atopian View Post
When it comes to virtues, your options are either learning a bunch of deeply non-intuitive relationships (even by the standards of roguelikes) then significantly modifying your playstyle accordingly...
...or deactivating virtues.

Obviously by my presentation of the issue I favour the latter.
My understanding is that if you want to deactivate virtues then you either have to modify the source code or play an older version
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Old November 20, 2017, 12:32   #52
Gwarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atopian View Post
When it comes to virtues, your options are either learning a bunch of deeply non-intuitive relationships (even by the standards of roguelikes) then significantly modifying your playstyle accordingly...
...or deactivating virtues.

Obviously by my presentation of the issue I favour the latter.
You're significantly overestimating the impact of virtues. If you're playing a crusade paladin you don't want to be evil and if you're playing a death priest you don't want to be good. Outside of the magic realms you'd expect, virtues don't really do much at all and can be safely ignored.
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Old November 20, 2017, 15:59   #53
CyclopsSlayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocht View Post
My understanding is that if you want to deactivate virtues then you either have to modify the source code or play an older version
As of 7.0.0 the option to deactivate virtues is gone along with Easy_ID, Easy_Info.

The problem with the virtue system from a non-programmer POV is it enforces a single playstyle. If you use stealth to get the first blow, you are Evil. Ranged shot across a room? Evil again.
The costs and benefits of the Virtues are completely hidden. I have heard second hand that to get the best Fail rates a Life user needs to be good, a Death user Evil, a Nature user needs to be Neutral. What about a Craft user, Trump? Etc...

Failing to cast a spell, eating food, trying an un-ID'd item, drinking a speed potion, are all Punished. The benefits are only apparent late game and even then there is nothing that I can point to and say, "See! My Fail rate is 3% not 4% because I did this! Or didn't do that!"

Virtues are just a way to ego-stroke those that are clued into a secret system.
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Old November 20, 2017, 20:10   #54
Mocht
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I have found a bug
My character has an Angband quest to kill 18 Barrow Wights
Some of these Barrow Wights transform into Emperor Wights, and killing the Emperor Wights doesn't count towards the quest
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Old November 20, 2017, 20:59   #55
Conker
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On the topic of cheating that's been alluded to a couple of times; does it actually matter? I mean, it's a single-player game, and there aren't any competitions comparable to, say, the DCSS tournaments. We only have our own enjoyment to ruin. Or is everyone else taking the ladder really seriously, and I'm the only one who doesn't particularly give two shits about it beyond as a neat tool to see what gear other people tend to use?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate difficulty in roguelikes. The idea of making it easier for myself is quite unpleasant to me on a personal level - fuck, I've genuinely suicided characters on Angband after finding a Staff of the Magi on D:1, or similar 'too much luck' scenarios. Which is probably a little crazy, but who cares. I can certainly empathise with the desire to challenge yourself and choosing to avoid perceived 'easy outs' like Easy ID, etc.

And I get the aggravation caused by something being turned into what it's not. If one individual guy is savescumming in his game, it doesn't do me any harm, but what if more and more people started doing it - what if it became the norm? And then influenced the whole conversation around the game, its future development, and that of other games? It'd be pretty damn annoying. I get the impression that's what Chris feels when he sees alternate versions of Poschengband going around.

But the thing is - and I'm going to be blunt here, apologies if I cause any offence - Poschengband (much like Vanilla Angband, at least the last time I played, and much like the vast majority of games) isn't a finely-balanced game. That's a matter of opinion, certainly, but having beaten both it (without any modifications or cheats, and without Easy ID or Easy Lore enabled for that matter) and pretty much every other major roguelike out there I'd say I have the breadth of experience to offer an informed opinion at least.

It's fun. There's lots to it; so much to do, so much variety, so many different ways to develop a character. Loads of really cool ideas. But balance is not its finest point by any means. The line between what is a strong tactic and what is an exploit seems entirely arbitrary. RNG has far too great a sway on combat in the lategame, particularly when variable speed/randomised energy and spells like Mana Storm come into play. Some spells are far too powerful in the player's hands. And half the things that are being passed off as 'difficulty' are closer to busywork than actual challenge.

I'd suggest that perhaps ultimately it doesn't really matter if some people are making Poschengband easier, or not playing it entirely the way the developer intended, because that 'balance' really isn't its greatest strength. Removing options people enjoyed in the sake of that balance will seem a harsh price to pay for those who didn't rate that balance very highly in the first place. For me, Poschengband's strength is that it manages to remain fun for the dozens of hours it may take a character to go from being an incompetent scrub doing the Mayor's quest up until they're ready to take on the Serpent.

I certainly agree that variants should be clearly marked, but at the end of the day I don't think removing options and contributions people seemed to enjoy is worth whatever we're supposed to be gaining.

Perhaps it will become worth it, if the developer's ultimate aim for the game is as a test of balance and skill more than anything else. If that's the case though, I'm afraid I'd have to say Chris still has a way to go before Poschengband's even close to that point, and he shouldn't be surprised if players turn to alternatives (even alternatives based largely on his own work, given the rich tradition of variants Angband has) that prioritise things they are more interested in than his idiosyncratic sense of balance.
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Old November 21, 2017, 12:35   #56
Atopian
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Apologies for the bad info on deactivating virtues - I have been slowly finishing off some old characters before upgrading. Although under the circumstances, I might not hurry to finish.
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Old November 21, 2017, 22:38   #57
Mocht
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I've found a bug
If ctrl-g auto-collect is used whilst standing on an item then that item will be picked up
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Old November 21, 2017, 23:28   #58
Gwarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocht View Post
I've found a bug
If ctrl-g auto-collect is used whilst standing on an item then that item will be picked up
That's not a bug

Code:
    /* Get any objects under foot first ... this is the old
     * 'g' behavior sans interaction with features (e.g. re-
     * enter a shop) */
    if (cave[py][px].o_idx || p_ptr->wizard)
    {
        if (pack_get_floor())
            energy_use = 100;
        else /* Pack is full or the user canceled the easy_floor menu */
            return;
    }
    /* Now, auto pickup nearby objects by iterating
     * the travel command */
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Old November 22, 2017, 05:49   #59
Mocht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarl View Post
That's not a bug
I disagree
To get it to behave as I think it is intended, I have to make sure that I execute the auto-collect command on a tile with no items

Also, I have found something which, if not a bug, seems anomalous
In my current game, the low level devices drop all the time, except for rods of illumination, which very rarely drop
I am not unknowingly autodestroying them, as they do sometimes drop
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Old November 22, 2017, 06:09   #60
wobbly
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While quite possibly the intended behaviour I don't personally find it optimal. Quite often in a fight junk drops end up rolling beneath my feet. At the end I press Ctrl-g &.. It works fine with stuff set to destroy because it'll destroy it on pickup, but stuff set to leave on floor it'll try & pickup. At the end of the day it's a pretty minor inconvenience to drop it manually or just move 1 step & press ctrl-g again (if your inventory is full & it gets stuck trying to pickup something that doesn't fit).
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