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Old December 5, 2013, 16:23   #71
Scatha
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Thanks, some really interesting comments and ideas there.

It's unclear to me whether the Free Action effect should be changed, split in two, renamed. It's obvious that its effects (whatever those are) should be more transparent.

Psi: interesting that you thought Strength to escape pits! Certainly it makes some sense. Perhaps makes the argument that it doesn't matter too much what the mechanic is flavourwise (among reasonable options), so long as it's transparent and gives good gameplay.

taptap: The idea of encumbrance giving other penalties is certainly interesting, and we've discussed this before. However it would be both odd and unbalancing to have this as well as the existing penalties on heavy armour types, so it would essentially require a redesign and rebalance of armour types. Not impossible, but I don't think it's a priority for the game, particularly when armour is actually pretty carefully balanced and it's unclear that what you'd get at the end of this process would be an improvement.
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Old December 5, 2013, 16:56   #72
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So, if you remove the "trap escapey" aspect of free action, there are still some "clear" escapes from the two constriction-type traps.

Webs = !Str

Pits = _freedom or song of freedom

Isn't this good enough? Given that these mechanics are clear, you can take the risk of not pooling !str or _freedom and balance it against how bad those traps are going to be for your build.

It could be nice to remove elbereth as a prereq for song of freedom so that you can more easily panic-buy it if you need to, I guess. That prereq never made sense to me in the first place.
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Old December 5, 2013, 17:12   #73
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There would still be some strangeness in parry+defender weapon = +4 evasion = +4 to escape pits.
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Old December 5, 2013, 17:14   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
So, if you remove the "trap escapey" aspect of free action, there are still some "clear" escapes from the two constriction-type traps.

Webs = !Str

Pits = _freedom or song of freedom

Isn't this good enough? Given that these mechanics are clear, you can take the risk of not pooling !str or _freedom and balance it against how bad those traps are going to be for your build.

It could be nice to remove elbereth as a prereq for song of freedom so that you can more easily panic-buy it if you need to, I guess. That prereq never made sense to me in the first place.
Song or Staff of Freedom works against webs as well, I thought. It really is underused.

Evasion is the closest to encumbrance you get in the game. Armour already reduces the damage you receive when falling into a pit, it should at least make it harder to escape.
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Old December 5, 2013, 17:46   #75
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Originally Posted by taptap View Post
Evasion is the closest to encumbrance you get in the game.
I find this statement very odd. We have an actual encumbrance number (which admittedly doesn't do much), and we also have the Stealth penalty for every 10lb of armour worn, which seems to me a much closer mechanical modelling of encumbrance than Evasion is. Could you explain your reasoning?
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Old December 5, 2013, 18:24   #76
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Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
I find this statement very odd. We have an actual encumbrance number (which admittedly doesn't do much), and we also have the Stealth penalty for every 10lb of armour worn, which seems to me a much closer mechanical modelling of encumbrance than Evasion is. Could you explain your reasoning?
Not even sure which encumbrance number you mean, it certainly isn't mentioned in the manual. The binary slow / not slow? The carried weight? Or the ratio of your luggage to your carrying capacity?

Aren't the penalties on armour approximately corresponding to weight? No, penalty on robe - huge penalty on hauberk. No penalty on crown - significant penalty on heavy full helms (great helm or dwarf mask). No penalty on boots - penalty on greaves. The difference between heavy metal gear and light gear adds easily up to 10 point evasion. And with truly heavy builds people often omit additional evasion. So you end with something similar without introducing a new mechanism, even when it is a bit unclear how the Shortsword of Galadriel helps in climbing out of a pit.
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Old December 5, 2013, 18:49   #77
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& my 9.7 lb kite shield of deflection? It's giving me +2
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Old December 5, 2013, 22:25   #78
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[QUOTE=taptap;87489]Not even sure which encumbrance number you mean, it certainly isn't mentioned in the manual. The binary slow / not slow? The carried weight? Or the ratio of your luggage to your carrying capacity?[quote]

Fair question. I guess I was merging these together, thinking of the pair of carried weight and capacity (and the trigger for slowness associated).

Re. Evasion and armour: sure, of course there's a link there. That's why it's what the game uses at the moment! I was just surprised that you thought it was the closest thing in the game to encumbrance (not that it's obvious how you'd use one of the others mechanically for pits).
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Old December 6, 2013, 01:45   #79
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Originally Posted by HallucinationMushroom View Post
Same here. I pretty much played exclusively heavy protection low evasion and the only times I ever noticed any pain from pits was trying to kill Morgy and getting annoyed, and your same exact scenario of being surrounded at the gates... The gate pits are really horrific, as there is usually no place to attempt to move to since you are swarmed. I luckily had enough consumables to eventually kill something & get an open space. I suppose exchange places would work while you were in a pit?
It doesn't happen often to me but when it does I'm reminded of my recommended solution of gradual bonuses upon failures. I don't think that would be unbalancing in any way and it would ease some rare but real frustration due to an unlucky stumble onto the wrong trap.

Try a Belegost with 4 str, 1 dex, 4 con, 3 grace, 1 melee, 8 smithing, and weaponsmith, armorsmith, and artistry. It's really quite fun and perfectly viable (after the first forge) except when you hit a pit with a monster next to you at a shallow depth.

I like making a +1, 4 lb longbow at the second forge. Though that hits evasion even harder.
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Old December 6, 2013, 03:49   #80
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Oh, I've been meaning to mention a minor language issue. The (very cool) text displayed when you descend to 1000' begins with "From up this stair comes the harsh din of feasting in Morgoth's own hall."

That doesn't make sense since the stair doesn't go up, it goes down. So the harsh din shouldn't be coming from "up the stair". That should read either "From down this stair..." or "Up this stair...". I prefer the former.
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