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Old October 19, 2017, 17:00   #41
bagori nd
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Originally Posted by Quirk View Post
I think you need 5 strength and Power to even begin to talk about one-handed warhammers being advantaged vs bastard swords, and this doesn't happen often.
Maybe this should be in the other thread, but I disagree. Warhammers are fine. If people don't use them much, there are lots of plausible reasons for this other than that they're too weak. Specifically:

(1) 4d2 warhammers aren't that uncommon (and aren't that hard to smith). A 4d2 warhammer substantially outdamages a 3d4 bastard sword with 4 Str + Power, a realistic proposition by midgame.

(2) Comparing the one-handed warhammers to the one-handed bastard sword in isolation is comparing them in a context that heavily favors the sword. The warhammer's niche consists in the fact that it gains more than the bastard sword does from (a) two-handing and (b) Charge.

(3) If hammers are actually good, why don't people use them more? I conjecture this has a lot to do with the following:
  • Most people play elves, and elves are better with swords.
  • For lore reasons important to Sil's immersiveness, there are more and better artifact swords.
  • Momentum does make swords too good, but the problem there is with Momentum, not with swords. Consider seeing how just removing Momentum plays out before further buffing hammers.

Last edited by bagori nd; October 19, 2017 at 17:53. Reason: readability, concision
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Old October 19, 2017, 17:17   #42
debo
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Warhammers also get way better criticals than greataxes.
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Old October 19, 2017, 17:41   #43
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Hmm, this rant turned out longer than I expected. Anyway:

It's quite common for me to use a battle axe, though part of this is just how common Dramborleg is. It's quite rare for me to use a warhammer which struggles to compete with the axe. Now while it's possible for hammers to beat out axes under prime conditions, it's the point where an axe is liable to punch straight through an ancient serpent anyway.

So with a 4d3 hammer at 5lbs, 2 handed, charging/power 4-44
3d6 axe at 5lbs, 2 handed, charging/power 3-42. you've lost the tiniest inch for something that will outperform with a shield, outperform if you attack without the charge bonus, outperform on the critical. It's worse if you compare slaying weapons. It's worse if you have a large song of slaying bonus & expect to critical. It's worse with song of sharpness which flat out wont work for a hammers.

Now certainly a hammer will kill Morgoth but it's very hard to get a situation where the hammer is better than the axe at the job. The 5lb hammer looks better at the job buffed but you can reach double & triple criticals from a 5lb axe with finesse & a large slaying bonus. You really need something over 5lbs to beat it & you need to not be using sharpness.

I'm not convinced removing momentum favours hammers over axes. On the one-hand 10str from a 5lb is better for the hammer then the axe. On the other it's slightly easier to find heavy hammers than heavy axes. I don't know the weight range is pretty close.
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Old October 19, 2017, 18:01   #44
bagori nd
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I'm not convinced removing momentum favours hammers over axes. On the one-hand 10str from a 5lb is better for the hammer then the axe. On the other it's slightly easier to find heavy hammers than heavy axes. I don't know the weight range is pretty close.
fwiw, I like that analysis. In a game without Momentum, it would probably be a good idea to tweak hammer weights a bit. Maybe a median weight around 7 lbs.--i.e. greatsword weight--is a good idea. It might also be a good idea to give dwarves a racial bonus with warhammers in addition to axes.
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Old October 19, 2017, 18:09   #45
bagori nd
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lastly, one more suggestion re: hammers.

There was an awesome thread a while back (which I can't find) about Rog, Lord of the House of the Hammer of Wrath. As was pointed out in that thread, it's kind of a travesty that Rog's hammer isn't in Sil already.

As a starting point for representing the Warhammer of Wrath, I suggest a warhammer of fury that simulates rage by granting the stat mods (+1 Str & Con, -1 Dex & Gra), has resist fire, and slays raukar.
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Old October 19, 2017, 19:15   #46
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The Suggestions thread?
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Old October 19, 2017, 19:27   #47
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yeah, totally! \m/
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