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Old December 12, 2017, 16:02   #11
Sky
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The real jewel in the standart set is not DW, but the Great Axe of Eonwe. It deals less damage, but activates for MBan, which otherwise a warrior would not have.

Also OP are the thancs, Cambeleg and Fingolfin, Feanor, and obviously the Arkenstone.

The GOP will not generate in a randart game, not even close.
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Old December 13, 2017, 00:50   #12
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I believe the crowding near the top of theoretical character ability identified by Sky is a serious issue with the game. If every end-game character has all resists, protections, and telepathy, 18/*** stats, and +30 base speed, and damage scales nicely, then players are going to expand into damage. Randarts make that easier of course, with off-weapon slays and blows. Sky seems to be proposing to have the cap be fluid in more places than just damage capability (I would nominate resistances in particular, since we have great examples of it working in variants, without distorting the game). I feel like this would alleviate the particular problem of sky-rocketing damage because everything else is static, and probably make the game better in a couple other ways.

I have a solution that is phrased somewhat differently, but is actually rather similar, except explicitly reversing power creep. Make the cap for ordinary skills harder to get. Make players have to sacrifice resists/damage/stats to get +30 speed. Characters will not all look the same if getting 18/*** CON and +30 speed already forces you to decide between high resists and damage output, because some will choose one and some the other.

There is the question of how to do that. Well, as a start, reduce the stats/abilities on standarts, or remove them if necessary. This will also make randarts weaker. Then, make egos weaker, or remove them if necessary, because otherwise everyone just uses enough egos to do what they wanted in the first place. After that, it may still be necessary to rebalance randarts, who knows.

This would make the game harder, in particular for late-game characters. I don't think that's a very bad thing.
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Old December 13, 2017, 02:13   #13
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Philip - If difficulty is all you want, it would be easy to introduce a no-egos birth option. Or, if you agree that the same items every time are boring and you want some variation, making the monsters harder might be easier than to reshuffle everything on the @ side.

Uncapped stats or not enough gear to reach the caps is the same thing, as long as there is enough room for stats to make a difference. What I mean by that: if, for example, you could only ever find combined +2 to strength in a game, that wouldnt have enough impact to create a meaningful itemisation puzzle.

As for defensive properties, they are firmly rooted down in what I called checklist behaviour. I would love to move away from that, but it would be a more daunting task (unless you are happy with the no-egos game option and its skeletal itemisation).

Last edited by Estie; December 13, 2017 at 02:14. Reason: typo
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Old December 13, 2017, 08:27   #14
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If you find the game too easy, try this challenge: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=20489

And if you find that still too easy, you can always add ironman to it
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Old December 13, 2017, 10:36   #15
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remember that in order to get a character maxed out, i will run 20-30 times through DL98, plus i grind DL20 about another 20 times, and i do about 2x between DL30 and 40. I also don't use DD.
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Old December 13, 2017, 11:03   #16
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Difficulty is quite literally a footnote to my proposal. I am not trying to make the game harder, I am proposing a fix for a problem that exists in the game, which would conveniently not require significant changes to the game, or would mimic existing changes in other variants.

As Estie notes (and I specifically mentioned in my proposal), there is a minor difference between my proposal and uncapped stats. It lies mostly in which areas I think could do with having less of a cap, and the method we use to extend the cap (making it harder to get 18/220 vs extending stats past 18/220). I am arguing for my method because all the groundwork is already implemented, and it avoids further number creep.

I did not say that it should be impossible to max a stat, or even max all stats. I said it should be impossible to max stats, get +30 speed unhasted and cover all resists (without, like PDSM or something) all at the same time.

I disagree that defensive properties function as a checklist. The only ones I would agree you need, and even some of these are not strictly speaking necessary, though they are very much nice to have, are FA, SI, rbase, rpois, pconf, and pblnd. Unless you mean checklist behavior as in the tendency of players to cover every single binary ability in the game, which I believe could be mitigated by making that behavior have a cost in terms of stats, speed, and/or damage output. With percentile resists you could also shake up the equipment juggling game.
I agree that moving away from binary abilities is difficult in general, since players can't afford to have defenses that they can be killed through. PosCheng has done some interesting work in this direction, but I wouldn't transpose that to V.
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Old December 13, 2017, 11:52   #17
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i don't see any of those things happening. or rather, i don't see them ALL happening at the same time. Sometimes you have maxed stats, but bad resists. sometimes you have speed and resists, but mediocre damage.
and sometimes you have everything. But that one game where you get everything in your artifact set to line up perfectly, is one out of 20.
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Old December 13, 2017, 12:06   #18
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Thats the checklist, FA SI rbase rpois, I would take rdis before pconf but it doesnt really matter how you sort or where exactly you cut off (and yes its long before rshard), and you can add 18/200 con and +20 speed to that list (as speed is both offensive and defensive).

The only defensive properties which have a bit of variation are AC, but since AC is so much less important than the items listed above it only appears among the cut off, and rbase, rpois but that is a simple thing of resist - double-resist - immunity. Compare that to the elaborate offensive game of str/dex/weight affecting blows and whatnot.

I have read about multiple levels of FA in poscheng; I wouldnt want to transpose that either, nor add %resist, instead I have posted long ago about basically putting AC at the top of that checklist and making the game of staying alive a bit more intricate with something like a constant damage absorption. The reason this would be such a major change is that it requires a complete rework of monsters, as currently all the major threats are elemental and would have to become physical instead.

Just like dealing damage is mostly about physical damage (1 type, not many), but with many winding ways to get it higher, taking less damage could become similar game. The current simple checklist can stay in place then, just add an AC minigame on top.

I am not at all sure if a change in that direction would really result in something better, it would lead far away from the current state, it would require testing.
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Old December 13, 2017, 14:54   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
i don't see any of those things happening. or rather, i don't see them ALL happening at the same time. Sometimes you have maxed stats, but bad resists. sometimes you have speed and resists, but mediocre damage.
and sometimes you have everything. But that one game where you get everything in your artifact set to line up perfectly, is one out of 20.
Your character in your first post, with no "OP items" has all resists and protections, 3 immunities, +37 base speed, 3 stats at *** and the remaining ones at /190 and /210.
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Old December 13, 2017, 16:14   #20
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I don't think that we can make any balance decisions based on Sky's playstyle, because like they admitted, they grind the hell out of the game. They routinely make posts saying "I looked at the randarts file and there was this awesome randart that I didn't find", and I firmly believe that failure was not for lack of trying.

It's absolutely possible in Vanilla to build a character that has fantastic ability/protection coverage and stats and speed, using just the standarts. Most players don't play a single character enough to get all the items required, though. It may well be easier to achieve that kind of loadout with randarts, but what's the average game like?

Which isn't to say that I'd be opposed to making the game harder. I don't think it's necessary to make resists and abilities nonbinary. A simple place to start is just by tweaking the pluses on items. Cut the average +CON by 1 point across all gear and see how much harder that makes the game.
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