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Old August 2, 2011, 20:41   #11
CunningGabe
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What if paralysis were split into two effects: one that prevented you from moving, and one that prevented you from acting? Lots of strategy games have something similar. Give the current paralyzers one or the other, with maybe a few uniques having both.
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Old August 2, 2011, 22:44   #12
Antoine
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I guess the question is, do we want paralysis to be instant death? Because that's what we have right now.
Well, hold on, it's not necessarily... as Timo points out you can survive melee paralysis if you have high enough AC... and a single unresisted paralysis spell may not kill you depending on who's around.

I think the status quo is fine.

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Old August 2, 2011, 23:24   #13
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Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Well, hold on, it's not necessarily... as Timo points out you can survive melee paralysis if you have high enough AC... and a single unresisted paralysis spell may not kill you depending on who's around.

I think the status quo is fine.
As I said in my initial post, in my experience, paralysis is death. This is especially the case now that AC has been nerfed.

(Let me also point out that Timo's example was specifically a heavily-armored priest against ghouls, albeit surrounded. Given that ghouls only have 2d6+1d6 melee, that's still pretty heavily-weighted in favor of the player)
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Old August 3, 2011, 03:25   #14
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As I said in my initial post, in my experience, paralysis is death.
Well I think that's OK personally. Find FA or don't allow a paralysing monster to attack you. Them's the breaks.

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Old August 3, 2011, 05:48   #15
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Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Well I think that's OK personally. Find FA or don't allow a paralysing monster to attack you. Them's the breaks.
I think it might be a good idea to add one or two more really early paralyzers, to keep the floating eyes company. It might help warn a few more players about how important it is to either have free action, or know exactly what you're doing.
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Old August 3, 2011, 07:04   #16
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As I said in my initial post, in my experience, paralysis is death. This is especially the case now that AC has been nerfed.

(Let me also point out that Timo's example was specifically a heavily-armored priest against ghouls, albeit surrounded. Given that ghouls only have 2d6+1d6 melee, that's still pretty heavily-weighted in favor of the player)
It wasn't priest (IIRC), it's just enough to have high enough saving throw. Hobbit or High-Elf mages have high initial saving throw too: high-elf mage starts with 50% saving and it gets to 70% by clvl 23 from clvl only, it's pretty much guaranteed to be perfect by clvl 50. Dwarf Priest starts with only 41% + WIS bonus, so they might be just as bad as mages or worse when paralyzis still is relevant.

My experiment was to find out can you break free from paralyzis at all if there are multiple attackers. You can. It is different and way faster when there is only one attacker, but Basilisks and Dracolisks and other high-level monsters like that kill you very fast, so melee-paralyzis is still pretty deadly. OTOH, fighting Titans without confusion resistance and confusion-proof escape is just as deadly, if not more deadly.

I think status quo is OK, if AC is changed back so that not all hits hit fighting white icky things.
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Old August 4, 2011, 10:22   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As I said in my initial post, in my experience, paralysis is death. This is especially the case now that AC has been nerfed.
Would you mind expanding on that? Maybe in a new thread? I'm struggling with this.

First, pre-3.1.x, heavy armour was totally pointless, as it added a tiny fraction of extra AC (which achieved very little) for a huge amount of extra weight. So in 3.1.something I extended the AC scale so that the extra weight gave a proportionate and useful increase in AC.

This had an unintended side effect of making high AC chars too hard to hit - leading to Eddie's famous account of Kronos (or Atlas, or whoever - one of the biggest melee hitters in the game) hitting him about one time in twelve.

So in 3.3 Jens readjusted the AC scale so that the highest ACs had about the same degree of protection that they used to have, while retaining the longer scale and proper weight proportions.

IIUC this ought to mean that light armour is effectively worse than it used to be (in 3.0.x), while heavy armours are about the same.

So how has AC been nerfed? Or do you simply mean it was not good enough in the first place? Or have we simply overcompensated?

The basic question is, what % chance to hit should the toughest melee baddies have on the highest-AC characters? (And I guess the corollary is what % to hit should kobolds and orcs have on starting chars?)

Jens has offered another version of his changes which might improve things. We'll try these in 3.4 dev versions and see what people think. I'm leaning more towards the evasion/absorption split myself though - I think this is the real solution to the AC problem. (But that's post-3.4)
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Old August 4, 2011, 10:23   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
What if paralysis were split into two effects: one that prevented you from moving, and one that prevented you from acting? Lots of strategy games have something similar. Give the current paralyzers one or the other, with maybe a few uniques having both.
+1. I really like this idea.
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Old August 4, 2011, 10:58   #19
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
So how has AC been nerfed? Or do you simply mean it was not good enough in the first place? Or have we simply overcompensated?
I'd say you have overcompensated. Current endgame-quality armor leads to around 150-180AC, not any higher. That should be the AC that is equal in 3.3 and 3.0.

AC scale change haven't really changed gear people use that much. AC is still not worth the weight, you now only need to avoid heavy hitters more than you used to. I'd say one point of speed is easily worth 50 points of AC (or more, depending how close you are a breakpoints +10 and +20).

My current warrior is suffering from the fact that he can't really fight heavy hitters like Greater Titans, but all that that has actually done is tiny slowdown of game because of increased avoidance and much more boring fights, because now some of the more interesting fights do not happen. It certainly has not made game any harder just more boring.
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Old August 4, 2011, 11:07   #20
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+1. I really like this idea.
I still don't see the problem with the paralysis-is-instadeath status quo

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