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Old July 29, 2020, 14:28   #131
lea2501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
Is this known or been fixed already?

Fighting Beorn with an axe Beorn dropped.
How are you playing with those mini windows embebbed in the main window with no borders?
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Old July 29, 2020, 15:38   #132
Sphara
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I don't know. I'm playing on angband.live and with my subwindow settings, this is how it looks like. No borderlines

Settings:
right cols 40
right split 10
top rows 0
bottom rows 10

term1 - monsters
term2 - items
term3 - messages
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Old July 29, 2020, 18:18   #133
DavidMedley
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I think a good point has been made here... What we're calling moves +1 should be moves +10 to stay consistent. This also opens up more gradations of movement speed, which I think is very good also.

On topic but a much bigger project: really fast moving stuff like birds should use +moves instead of +speed. Slow stuff like Colossi -moves. Their attacks would have to be adjusted. Then AC could have a built in bonus or penalty to ranged combat only based on moves. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
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Old July 30, 2020, 03:50   #134
Pete Mack
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@David:
No! And again no! Fast movement and the like are NOT equivalent to +10 speed, and it is misleading to show them as such. The issue is that the archery description is broken. What is shown as +1 shot should be +0.1 shot, though its raw pval display can remain as +1.
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Old July 30, 2020, 04:00   #135
Pete Mack
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Here is an alternative, if you don't like the +1 display. Show fast action as a multiplier, so +1 movement and fast cast (and + 10 shot) are shown as x2. But whatever you do, don't follow the existing +shots model, which shows an misleading number that appears commensurate with speed but means something completely different
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Old July 30, 2020, 13:47   #136
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What about making them *really* speed bonuses? So if you have +10 speed and +10 movement speed, when you spend an action moving you regain energy as if your speed was +20. And similarly for shooting and attack speed.

Advantages:
* simpler and more natural for the player.
* attack/shoot speed have diminishing returns exactly like "flat" speed, because they use the same mechanic. This reduces the amount of cheese (e.g., machine-gun rangers).
* reduces the importance of flat speed bonuses in the game. Currently speed bonuses trump basically everything else.

Disadvantages:
* more complicated to code
* will require some rebalancing for items that grant +attack / shots.
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Old July 30, 2020, 20:39   #137
Voovus
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Originally Posted by fph View Post
What about making them *really* speed bonuses?
Or maybe completely removing the usual "speed" and replacing it all by movement speed? No more worrying about M getting two moves against you, no more pillar dancing, and a huge amount of rebalancing.
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Old July 30, 2020, 22:25   #138
DavidMedley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
@David:
No! And again no!
Well this is more passion than I was expecting! Aren't +1 speed, +1 shots, +1 blows all essentially +10% from starting values? Should these all be properly named +0.1?
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Old July 30, 2020, 22:38   #139
DavidMedley
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Originally Posted by fph View Post
What about making them *really* speed bonuses? So if you have +10 speed and +10 movement speed, when you spend an action moving you regain energy as if your speed was +20. And similarly for shooting and attack speed.
I agree this is better. I think I saw Wobbly championing this a while back, too. Thing is, the diminishing returns are very punishing. With those in place, specific speed bonuses will do very little when you have high general speed bonus. I don't love the artificial diminishing returns; they feel forced... a way to cover up for broader mistakes (perhaps RoS +10 is too high, for example). But now we're talking about a major overhaul that I can't even give a confident opinion upon.

For example, if you have +30 speed and put on +1 movement boots, you'd only go from 3.8x to 4.2x -- about +10% moves against your enemy instead of the current +100%! And that's setting aside the fact that general speed help gain energy and specific speeds affect spending energy.
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Old July 31, 2020, 03:07   #140
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But speed increase is not commensurate with shots (or or movement or spellcasting.) the former gives you more energy per player turn. The latter all cut energy use by some amount. The effects are very different, except in the special case of starting from normal speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMedley View Post
Well this is more passion than I was expecting! Aren't +1 speed, +1 shots, +1 blows all essentially +10% from starting values? Should these all be properly named +0.1?
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