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Old October 9, 2010, 15:39   #21
buzzkill
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The question is not whether warriors can manage with the proposed changes. The question is whether to choose yet another mechanic that further penalizes warriors in comparison to other classes.
Are the classes supposed to be balanced? I seem to recall that maintaining balance-of-difficulty among classes wasn't all that important. It was OK for some classes to be easier or harder than others. Aside, with all the changes happening to V right now, do we need to worry about class balance after every change. Certainly fractional blows will tip the scale in the other direction.
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Old October 9, 2010, 18:04   #22
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Are the classes supposed to be balanced? I seem to recall that maintaining balance-of-difficulty among classes wasn't all that important. It was OK for some classes to be easier or harder than others. Aside, with all the changes happening to V right now, do we need to worry about class balance after every change. Certainly fractional blows will tip the scale in the other direction.
Sadly not. When smoothing out the blows table I made a conscious effort not to make the game easier, so although the table is smoother (and the very early game is easier, with >1 blow obtainable earlier), the dex scale has been stretched (to max at 18/200 rather than 18/150). So this actually penalises warriors a bit more.

But your general point is valid: there's no point fretting about class balance in the midst of all this change. When we get close to releasing 3.2 we can, if class balance is important, make adjustments then in the absence of any further fundamental changes.
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Old October 9, 2010, 18:08   #23
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There are degrees of difficulty, but requiring one of the classes to stumble about the dungeon half-blind while the others can actually see what's going on is too extreme.

Adding fractional blows will give all melee-reliant classes better crowd control, but that's in no way going to make up for the lack of information removing ESP would cause. I'd say, if you want to make up for that, you need warriors to have on average ~2000 hitpoints by the endgame. That might be enough. Of course, it renders fights where the warrior actually does know what's going on rather moot, which is why it hasn't happened.
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Old October 9, 2010, 19:56   #24
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Are the classes supposed to be balanced? I seem to recall that maintaining balance-of-difficulty among classes wasn't all that important. It was OK for some classes to be easier or harder than others.
It's one thing to have harder classes. It is something else when every single choice penalizes the same class.
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Old October 9, 2010, 20:09   #25
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
It's one thing to have harder classes. It is something else when every single choice penalizes the same class.
Just to be clear: I don't see my change penalizing warriors, quite opposite. Which message are you referring to that you see as penalizing warriors, or if you see my change as penalizing warriors, why?
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Old October 9, 2010, 23:06   #26
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Just to be clear: I don't see my change penalizing warriors, quite opposite. Which message are you referring to that you see as penalizing warriors, or if you see my change as penalizing warriors, why?
There are too many messages about different topics in this thread, and I think I have got things combined and confused in my mind.

I would prefer that perception or ESP or other observational things not be tied to stats or items preferred by spellcasters vs warriors. So IMO it would be bad to add bonuses to those skills to an amulet of wisdom or to an amulet of the magi. If you put them on a brand new amulet without int/wis boost, or on encumbering gloves, that would make me happier.
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Old October 9, 2010, 23:46   #27
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
There are too many messages about different topics in this thread, and I think I have got things combined and confused in my mind.

I would prefer that perception or ESP or other observational things not be tied to stats or items preferred by spellcasters vs warriors. So IMO it would be bad to add bonuses to those skills to an amulet of wisdom or to an amulet of the magi. If you put them on a brand new amulet without int/wis boost, or on encumbering gloves, that would make me happier.
That's easily arranged. With that change things would need some balancing anyway. Otherwise early amulets of searching and rings of searching would become a bit too powerful (wear three of those and have practically telepathy and detect everything as you walk).

Only thing that warriors and almost everybody will wear at some point is Helmet of Seeing, which could be perfect for this even without any kind of tweaking. Warriors could use Amulets of searching (ESP, but not current AoESP) very long when priests prefer WIS and mages Magi. Everybody prefers Trickery later. Especially at stat-gain warriors would benefit from this more than any other, because that amulet changes things for it more than it does for anybody else.
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Old October 12, 2010, 19:37   #28
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the basic issue is that telepathy/esp should be incremental rather than binary
For a system we already have handy flags for, what about basing levels of ESP on the monster categories? If you run with the idea that the simpler the intelligence, the easier it is to pinpoint telepathically, then you could have something along the lines of:

ESP +1 - detects animals, orcs and trolls
ESP +2 - also detects giants
ESP +3 - also detects dragons
ESP +4 - detects everything with a brain

That way, even the lowest level of ESP remains useful for spotting packs of hounds, but higher levels will help you pick up a greater range of threats.
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