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Old April 9, 2012, 16:00   #31
HallucinationMushroom
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What about tracking the consumables used during the fights? Often, when I'm evaluating uniques, I think of my major healing potions, speed potions and other harder-than-average-to-replace things. Sure, I might be able to kill the Tarrasque with a given character, but is it worth 8 heals, 5 speeds, 1 rune of protection, and so on. Just a thought. I notice in your screenshot you don't list major healing, so maybe this info isn't really so useful.
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Old April 9, 2012, 16:09   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riff View Post
Wouldn't teleportation somewhat help to afford a few turns to quaff potions/use long-range weaponry safely?
That's what phase door is for, not teleportation.
Like HM said, I'd give him a couple potions of healing.
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Old April 9, 2012, 17:01   #33
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I got rid of Wand of Teleport Other, Staff of Teleportation, and Scroll of Teleportation, then reran some simulations for the previous top 10 to see whether any significant changes would occur in the results.
  1. Rogrog the Black Troll (up from #3)
  2. Vargo, Tyrant of Fire (down from #1)
  3. Scatha the Worm (up from #5)
  4. Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain (same)
  5. Itangast the Fire Drake (up from #6)
  6. Adunaphel the Quiet (up from #7)
  7. Akhorahil the Blind (up from #9)
  8. Quaker, Master of Earth (down from #2)
  9. Ren the Unclean (up from #10)
  10. Ulfang the Black (down from #8)

Details on sheet 2 here.

Most significant changes seem to be Rogrog, Scatha, Quaker, and Ulfang. The borg was even less likely to win against Quaker without teleportation it seems (I don't think it likes tunneling).

I'm going to add a corridor as mentioned earlier and rerun simulations across all uniques to see what I get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by will_asher View Post
Like HM said, I'd give him a couple potions of healing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HallucinationMushroom View Post
What about tracking the consumables used during the fights?
Noted. I'll give...I dunno 5 Potions of Healing? I'm uncertain how consumables would contribute to interestingness (more consumables used = more interesting?).

I'm starting to wonder whether balanced fights indicate interestingness (as I've been using), or fights that the borg is is less likely to win is more interesting. I guess it depends on whether you believe a fight you'll more likely win can be interesting? (With the current theory, this can happen if the average remaining %HP is low enough)
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Old April 9, 2012, 17:38   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riff View Post
Anything else you would suggest?
If you could log r_ptr->power and r_ptr->scaled_power as well as r_ptr->depth and r_ptr->hp, that would be really helpful.
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Old April 9, 2012, 18:00   #35
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Hm, I would tend to think that an interesting fight is one that is close, and that includes use of one-shot resources. Your average player is going to be carrying some potions in case of emergency. Generally I go into the dungeon with 15 Cure Critical Wounds and 2-4 Healing potions (and 15 Phase Door and a bunch of other stuff that wouldn't make sense to use in your context), though of course by the time I encounter a given unique they may be depleted somewhat.

Of course, it's not at all clear that the enemies the borg would have trouble with are the same ones that humans would have trouble with, but it's not like you have an automatable human-level AI handy.
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Old April 9, 2012, 18:51   #36
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I think the biggest point of contention with the exercise is that it clashes so strongly with my own experience. I think the following uniques are interesting.

orfax/boldor
wormtongue
huan/carcharoth
thuringwethil
tselakus
kavlax
draebor
saruman
Adunaphel
Dwar (with the summoning changes of 3.4, summon hounds is a very interesting summon spell)

(omarax would be, if he had a drop)

My list doesn't overlap at all with Riff's...
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Old April 9, 2012, 19:01   #37
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Most of the uniques you're looking at are outside the range he's examining, which is basically "midgame uniques". That explains the disparity.
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Old April 9, 2012, 19:11   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Hm, I would tend to think that an interesting fight is one that is close, and that includes use of one-shot resources.
A close match, yes! That's what I figure as well. For that reason, I think borg's likelihood of winning should be the biggest indicator. I could add % use of consumables as a factor as well I suppose. Currently that would include:
  • 5 Potions of Healing
  • 41 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
  • 1 Potion of Restore Life Levels
  • 2 Potions of Speed
  • 4 Potions of Resist Poison
  • 14 Scrolls of Phase Door
  • 9 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger
  • 26 Arrows of Venom
  • 69 Arrows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Of course, it's not at all clear that the enemies the borg would have trouble with are the same ones that humans would have trouble with, but it's not like you have an automatable human-level AI handy.
I'll work with what I have for now, haha. Having a human-level AI would definitely help make it more accurate though, yes.
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Old April 10, 2012, 02:29   #39
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I ran a full simulation using this new dungeon, and as mentioned earlier, teleportation stuff has been removed, and 5 Potions of Healing have been added.

Giving equal weighting to Win/Lose Ratio and %HP Remaining, these are the top 10:
  1. Rogrog the Black Troll
  2. Vargo, Tyrant of Fire
  3. Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain
  4. Akhorahil the Blind
  5. Itangast the Fire Drake
  6. Adunaphel the Quiet
  7. Smaug the Golden
  8. Waldern, King of Water
  9. Scatha the Worm
  10. Quaker, Master of Earth

Mostly familiar faces, though Smaug and Waldern have replaced Ulfang and Ren.

If I only consider Win/Lose Ratio closest to 0.5:
  1. Rogrog the Black Troll
  2. Vargo, Tyrant of Fire
  3. Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain
  4. Akhorahil the Blind
  5. Smaug the Golden
  6. Itangast the Fire Drake
  7. Adunaphel the Quiet
  8. Draebor, the Imp
  9. Scatha the Worm
  10. Waldern, King of Water

Similar, but additionally Draebor has replaced Quaker.

I'm going to start working on the unique generation algorithm, essentially seeking to optimize some evaluation function. Personally, I think the evaluation function could be tweaked to your taste, but for the purposes of my project, I'm thinking of using something like this:
  1. Win/lose ratio close to 0.5 [Weight = 5]
  2. High average use of consumables [Weight = 3]
  3. Low average %HP remaining [Weight = 2]

The weights are quite arbitrary, but I think make sense to some extent.

Win/lose ratio definitely should be the main indicator - we wouldn't want an enemy that forces high use of consumables, has low HP once it beats you, but is ultimately near impossible to beat, to score high.

Average use of consumables might cover too many things; but to keep the function simple, it'll do for now. I imagine you could split it into several values tracking different types of consumables and optimize different kinds of monsters that way.

I think average use of consumables is just slightly more important than the average %HP remaining, considering that HP can be replenished and that consumables are pretty much one-shot.

Once I'm done, I'll have to see how to get people to try it out... I'm doing dev work on a Windows machine, so I'm not entirely sure whether my hacks are going to work without a hitch on other platforms.
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Old April 10, 2012, 23:21   #40
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So it turns out my previous results with the included 5 Potions of Healing were invalid. I only realized this once I started logging the consumable usage and found that the borg seemed to be mysteriously using up ALL its Healing for ALL simulations. Then I found that it had been hard-coded to use up Healing if its HP is below a certain value when facing a QUESTOR...I suppose with the assumption that it was fighting Morgoth and had a lot more HP.

Anyway, I got some new results, and the rankings have changed significantly due to the addition of Healing (not surprising I suppose considering the survivability it affords). Again, using my evaluation function, these are the most 'interesting'(along with the interestingness score):
  1. Beorn, the Shape-Changer 0.665
  2. The Queen Ant 0.662
  3. Lorgan, Chief of the Easterlings 0.583
  4. Medusa, the Gorgon 0.499
  5. Ji Indur Dawndeath 0.387
  6. Akhorahil the Blind 0.369
  7. Vargo, Tyrant of Fire 0.334
  8. Hoarmurath of Dir 0.319
  9. Shelob, Spider of Darkness 0.272
  10. Smaug the Golden 0.269

Among them, the borg's survivability seems to indicate:
  • Close: Beorn and Queen Ant almost.
  • Tough: Hoarmurath, Shelob, Medusa, Lorgan
  • Easy: Smaug, Vargo, Akhorahil, Ji Indur

Full data here.


Just out of interest, I tried looking at the correlations between some of the data. There's a high correlation(-0.849) between Depth and the Win/Lose Ratio, so that at least shows that the borg is generally finding the uniques progressively harder and harder to defeat. The next highest(-0.412) is between Power and the Win/Lose Ratio. So it seems as though Depth is a much better indicator than Power for the borg's survivability.

I think I'm done with analyzing the existing uniques for now. Generated uniques coming soon...
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