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Old May 19, 2013, 18:06   #261
Derakon
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Alternately, you win as soon as your last dwarf dies. Thus new players tend to win rather faster than old ones...
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Old May 19, 2013, 21:27   #262
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My stabber found gauntlets of treachery early last game and boy did it give me an appreciation for Opportunist! That whole stealth skill tree is super-helpful for stabbers. I think maybe Vanish is the least helpful.

On a related note, is there any advantage to a point of dexterity over the skill bonuses it gives you for its four skills?
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Old May 19, 2013, 23:11   #263
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My stabber found gauntlets of treachery early last game and boy did it give me an appreciation for Opportunist! That whole stealth skill tree is super-helpful for stabbers. I think maybe Vanish is the least helpful.
Vanish used to be a lot more helpful because (a) enemies would never return to unwary without it, and (b) (this is personal opinion) most of us were a lot less used to the stealth mechanics. You can go a long way just by hiding in corners, hugging walls, passing turns strategically (+7 stealth bonus for that!) etc, and now if an enemy fails a perception check by enough points, they'll go unwary regardless of vanish.

Treachery gloves are probably the biggest "gateway drug" item in the game, because you can't take them off and are therefore forced to realize how awesome opportunist is

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On a related note, is there any advantage to a point of dexterity over the skill bonuses it gives you for its four skills?
I don't think so, but once you have a lot of points in even just two of the skills, buying Dex starts to become a good prospect. (e.g. with melee and evasion at 20, it would cost 4200XP to raise both to 21. Unless you've bought every stealth or evasion ability under the sun, spending the XP on buying Dex would be cheaper.)

In general, I believe the vast majority of checks in Sil are done against relevant skills, not against raw stats.
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Old May 19, 2013, 23:31   #264
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Vanish used to be a lot more helpful because (a) enemies would never return to unwary without it, and (b) (this is personal opinion) most of us were a lot less used to the stealth mechanics. You can go a long way just by hiding in corners, hugging walls, passing turns strategically (+7 stealth bonus for that!) etc, and now if an enemy fails a perception check by enough points, they'll go unwary regardless of vanish.

Treachery gloves are probably the biggest "gateway drug" item in the game, because you can't take them off and are therefore forced to realize how awesome opportunist is
Yep! Then again it's as much a testament to how annoying fleeing monsters are as it is to how cool opportunist is.

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I don't think so, but once you have a lot of points in even just two of the skills, buying Dex starts to become a good prospect. (e.g. with melee and evasion at 20, it would cost 4200XP to raise both to 21. Unless you've bought every stealth or evasion ability under the sun, spending the XP on buying Dex would be cheaper.)

In general, I believe the vast majority of checks in Sil are done against relevant skills, not against raw stats.
Thought so. Thanks!
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Old May 19, 2013, 23:34   #265
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Alternately, you win as soon as your last dwarf dies. Thus new players tend to win rather faster than old ones...
The only real danger in dwarf fortress (once you know your way around) is fps-death. But back to Sil.

Vanish looks like a simple buff for a skill check, but the 10 points difference are huge. It is quite hard to get 30 difference just by closing a door or going around the corner, with 20 it is an option. Of course you don't need this very often, when you pick your fights carefully, but each time you need it, it probably saves your life, it also allows you to stab your victims twice.

Dexterity "only" gives a bonus to all related skill checks (maybe there are a few checks on the pure stats as well). This again is huge - a bargain really: if you would try to get as much by investing in skill points you often would invest up to 5000 points (if you have high melee, evasion, stealth) in the late game.
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Old May 25, 2013, 19:37   #266
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I find myself wishing for more special rooms like forges. Even if they were rarer than forges, it would be pretty neat. Anyone want to help me brainstorm some ideas?

1) A library. While you stand on the center square, you have the Loremaster ability (everything you hold and see on the ground is ID'd). This might also serve a side purpose of making Loremaster less of an absolutely-must-have ability.

2) An arena. While on the arena floor (in the center of the room), you have the Crowd Fighting ability. There are lots of weapons, armor, and skeletons on the floor. Maybe a higher chance for Gloves of Swordplay, etc. On the other hand, once you step into the arena area where the good equipment lies, you have the effect of an alarm trap (not disarmable or avoidable) bringing monsters to fight you for the goodies. Perhaps monsters are even created to kick your butt.

3) An auditorium. Stepping on the stage makes a lot of noise, but temporarily gives you the use of a random Song for the remainder of the level. If that's too powerful, it gives you Woven Themes and/or Unwavering Voice while you're in the room.

4) An archery range. Scads of arrows and shortbows on the ground. Maybe a higher chance for Gloves of Archery. Guaranteed to be a large pack of archers, maybe OOD, as a trade off. Perhaps the room also grants a temporary Archery ability while inside. Or perhaps there are archery targets on one wall that are like chests that can only be 'opened' by shooting them with a bow. The higher your Archery roll, the better the loot drop.

5. Trap rooms with moving walls that will crush you. You step inside, the lights go out, the doors lock (like a Staff of Imprisonment) and the walls move every couple of turns. Escapes: digging, horn of blasting, staff of freedom, or picking/bashing the doors quickly.

6. Mini-throne rooms where uniques or raukar or even orc captains hold their own court.

7. Armories or barracks with lots of loot (locked chests, so it's not free XP for Loremasters looking at new items then running away). Guaranteed to be full of huge packs of monsters.

8. Shrines left behind by previous travellers into the depths -- rooms sealed off by glyphs where a player can safely rest. Guaranteed food inside... maybe also lamp oil and/or a healing or other minor beneficial item. Perhaps a square you can stand on that will have a one-time effect of uncursing your items (again, making Loremaster or Curse Breaking a little less Must-Have).

9. Chasms. The player can choose to leap across (an Evasion check? a Dex check?) and if failed, fall to a lower level as per a crumbling floor. Flying monsters and arrows pass over chasms freely... other monsters don't. So it's both an obstacle and a useful tool. Perhaps flying monsters are generated from the chasm (just as walkers are generated via stairs). Perhaps fog from the chasm causes Archery rolls over them to be halved (to discourage luring stupid monsters to the edge, jumping across, and pelting them to death). These could also be created as part of the Earthquake effect.

10. An arcane circle that, when used, recharges one staff on your person by 1d3 uses.
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Old May 25, 2013, 19:54   #267
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That chasm thing kinda reminds me of brogue
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Old May 26, 2013, 05:28   #268
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Originally Posted by Starhawk View Post
I find myself wishing for more special rooms like forges. Even if they were rarer than forges, it would be pretty neat. Anyone want to help me brainstorm some ideas?

1) A library. While you stand on the center square, you have the Loremaster ability (everything you hold and see on the ground is ID'd). This might also serve a side purpose of making Loremaster less of an absolutely-must-have ability.
I don't like this - it feels too strong, so obviously it couldn't appear every game - so now you're reliant on library RNG. If it was limited-use ID like how a forge is limited-use crafting, I'd be fine with it.

All the others sound REALLY cool, though. I particularly like ideas that give you an ability or advantage temporarily - they encourage the user to explore the use of abilities they might not otherwise think of picking up. (Kind of like the gloves of treachery effect)
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Old May 26, 2013, 10:58   #269
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I find myself wishing for more special rooms like forges.
Wow, that is a fascinating set of ideas. Most of them would be great for some game, but I'm not sure it is Sil, as they feel a bit gamey/unrealistic or just not likely to be found in Angband and so unthematic. Pretty much all of them would be great in Crawl/Brogue.

We do have mini throne rooms (two types I think), as well as the 4 greater vaults themed around particular uniques. We have planned to have chasms since the very earliest days, but they require quite a bit of tricky coding, including changes to monster AI, so they are still not a high priority.

Currently spaces in Sil are all (almost all?) determined by the terrain squares and not by some kind of hidden flag, which makes me reluctant to change that model. However, many of these could be reimplemented with e.g. a different coloured floor, or a bookcase tile which you get loremaster when adjacent to etc.

I could almost imagine adding the library (which wouldn't actually be *all* that hard to do), but I'm not sure if it is: (1) too nethackish/crawlish or generally different to the rest of Sil, (2) too hard to imagine why it does the effect, (3) too out of place in Angband, (4) too powerful. It is right on the edge for all of these for me. That said, researching items of power is much more Tolkienian than staffs of understanding...
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Old May 27, 2013, 05:32   #270
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While the throne room appears to be a mead hall, or something similar, I could see Morgoth having a library down there.
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