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View Poll Results: What do you think of the forgetting effect?
Overall it is quite negative to the game experience. 10 41.67%
Mixed feelings. 7 29.17%
Overall it is quite positive to the game experience. 7 29.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 4, 2013, 02:15   #11
Patashu
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Not saying if I like it or not, but it would be interesting if Sil went the way of Angband and turned Amnesia from map rot into temporary disability - where Angband makes all your spells hard to cast, maybe in Sil it would pick one of your skills at random and force it to be off for a short duration? (It could even stack and disable more and more skills at once)
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Old August 4, 2013, 02:54   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patashu View Post
Not saying if I like it or not, but it would be interesting if Sil went the way of Angband and turned Amnesia from map rot into temporary disability - where Angband makes all your spells hard to cast, maybe in Sil it would pick one of your skills at random and force it to be off for a short duration? (It could even stack and disable more and more skills at once)
In FAangband I chose, like Sil, to keep the maprot as the only effect of amnesia (ditching the annoying all-your-stuff-is-now-inID'd effect) instead of moving to the new V effect.

I won't vote because I haven't got far enough in Sil for it to be an issue...
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Old August 4, 2013, 22:29   #13
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In my win and my not-wins I've never once felt or been even remotely endangered by Mewlip amnesia, so it isn't succeeding at that goal for me. What it is succeeding at is annoying me greatly by making me try to remember what parts of the level I haven't been to so I can check them for items or dudes to kill. The part where you can just get the info back with a recording isn't helpful either... sil got me to install cygwin for termcast, true story.

I suspect it would be much less irritating in this way if you could get the map knowledge you previously had back without having to reexplore the entire thing (kill the mewlip, stay away from it for a while, whatever), but I still would prefer that the effect just not be there. I'd rather things actually try to kill me and maybe even succeed instead of focus more on irritating me, but even if nonlethal annoyance is desirable as it sometimes is, you surely can do better than this... Patashu mentions temporary disabilities, doing something like that might be good.
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Old August 5, 2013, 11:24   #14
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I think the way amnesia blocks your "door-sense" is the main thing it does if you have a good memory. This has been mentioned elsewhere.

Overall I find it's just a nuisance, although I find that amnesia traps are much more annoying than mewlips. Mewlips don't really bug me that much, but amensia traps on big levels aren't fun.

My problem, though, actually isn't that amensia is annoying. It's more that the effect is too "meta" for my tastes. Taking screenshots isn't hard. At least on windows you can load up "snipping tool" and take screenshots with that. You don't even need to save them anywhere and the program is simple, so the whole process would take about 2 seconds. I don't actually do this... but it's tempting.

You might say this is cheating, but it's the same as commiting the map to memory, drawing it on paper, or just taking good notes. Notes are even supported in-game. If you were insane, you could even draw a map in ascii art using ingame notes (please, please don't try this).

Overall, that sort of possibility just bugs me. I prefer effects that debuff or harm you in some way, and need to be countered via good tactics and strategy. And that's the sort of thing that makes Sil a good game.
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Old August 5, 2013, 12:00   #15
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Originally Posted by evilmike View Post
My problem, though, actually isn't that amensia is annoying. It's more that the effect is too "meta" for my tastes.
Yeah, I think I agree with this. It creates an in-game effect - "Your memory of the level layout is lost" - that's countered by the out-of-game reality: my memory of the level layout is actually still perfectly intact. So the extent of the negative effect is governed by something completely external to the game, how good the player's memory happens to be, which seems rather counter to the spirit of roguelikes to me.

How about having amnesia temporarily disable your skills or something? Or a longer version of the temporary blackout that you get with herbs of rage?
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Old August 5, 2013, 13:41   #16
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So the extent of the negative effect is governed by something completely external to the game, how good the player's memory happens to be, which seems rather counter to the spirit of roguelikes to me.
While I'm certainly open to removing or changing the effect (hence this thread!) I do find this to be a weak argument. The player's intellectual abilities are certainly relevant to the game and part of the spirit of roguelikes!

Also, the exact features of the map are far from a triviality. If you like, try hacking the game so that the temporary forgetting of the map due to Rage is permanent. The game is much harder. It is actually pretty interesting to try this. I find it enjoyable for a while, but I don't think I'd like to spend an hour playing that way.

It is interesting actually that I've never heard anyone complain about the temporary lack of access to the map with rage, or about hallucination, despite these being so similar to the Mewlip amnesia and the lack of ability to distinguish colour (and hence monster subtypes) with rage.
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Old August 5, 2013, 13:43   #17
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How about having amnesia temporarily disable your skills or something? Or a longer version of the temporary blackout that you get with herbs of rage?
I won't do the former, as it is not that I wanted an amnesia-themed ability and decided on this one, it was that I *like* the effect.

The latter is a possibility though. Would this alleviate people's concerns, or would they dislike it nearly as much?
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Old August 5, 2013, 13:44   #18
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Overall I find it's just a nuisance, although I find that amnesia traps are much more annoying than mewlips.
I'd completely forgotten about amnesia traps.

I'll definitely remove those.
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Old August 5, 2013, 13:59   #19
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I'd completely forgotten about amnesia traps.
That's the point of them, isn't it?
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Old August 5, 2013, 15:50   #20
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I avoid it whenever possible, but as part of the game I adore it.

It's nice to have a monster-forced effect that actually DOESN'T KILL YOUR CHARACTER. Unlike pretty much everything else.

If you're going to alter the way the effect works, the bell should regenerate all the exits to the level -- i.e. the walls/doors/traps/everything stay known to the player.... but the stairs all move.

Or, you could try to figure out a way of un-ID'ing some items...

That said, are there actually people out there that use screenshots to circumvent this effect? Because if so, I heap my scorn upon them.
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