Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 23, 2014, 19:53   #21
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,367
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
haha thanks for the constructive criticism. Jeez, doesn't anybody here ever *swap* equipment to match it to the situation? I don't get tired of doing that, I like it, it's part of the game, adapting to the situation.
If I can avoid it, no, I don't ever swap when in the dungeon. The reasoning is the same as before: You might make a mistake when swapping -- you might fumble a swap at a crucial moment (keyboard-wise), or you might not be paying 100% attention to exactly what resists and protections you have covered. Forgetting to cover FA and dying to some pathetic melee-paralyzer is a classic instance of the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
OK, ok, I will see what it is like with the emphasis on con and speed and see how it goes. So you see, I was smart to keep all that great equipment, I knew I'd need it eventually.
The key is getting CON (and obviuosly character level) high enough to get above 600ish HP. Beware that the CON bonus scales non-linearly! If you do that and have rBase + rPoison there's basically no single monster that can one-shot you.

You should also be using Create Doors whenever you enter a new level (as long as nothing is blocking the door spaces -- if there is, either Mass Banishment or Destruction is the way to go.)

Of course you should definitely play the way you like -- perhaps you'll discover a wholly new way to win reliably, though I doubt it . What people have recommended is basically "this is the way to win reliably", not necessarily "this will be fun for you". Unfortunately, Angband does limit winning tactics somewhat.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 20:54   #22
mushroom patch
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 298
mushroom patch is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarague View Post
Ok, I feel it's very important to come in on Bogatyr's side in this discussion. Simple argument:
a) in all discussions about new features it is stressed, that there is no correct way to play angband and people should make their own choices, multiple approaches are and should be valid
b) Bogatyr is successful with his style of play and seems to enjoy it quite a lot
That should be enough to convince everyone to rephrase all the 'you have to's into 'I would recommend's.
I think it is a nice sign of the flexibility of angband that a rogue mage can be made to work although a lot of people seem to believe it to be inferior to a high speed mage.
idk, a mage at dungeon level 62, xp level 39 deathly afraid of encounters with dracolisks doesn't sound like it's working. I mean, sure, you can play any way you like, but if you go on a forum arguing that it makes sense to forgo +21 speed in favor of +11 stealth, (when you would have +6 stealth without the +11) you can expect some spirited pushback.
mushroom patch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 21:25   #23
Bogatyr
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 448
Bogatyr is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
idk, a mage at dungeon level 62, xp level 39 deathly afraid of encounters with dracolisks doesn't sound like it's working. I mean, sure, you can play any way you like, but if you go on a forum arguing that it makes sense to forgo +21 speed in favor of +11 stealth, (when you would have +6 stealth without the +11) you can expect some spirited pushback.
Well I do enjoy the "rogue mage" style, so there :P. But I must admit embracing higher speed and teleport other as the "choose your fights" method (in addition to diving aggressively) has accelerated my progress quite a bit:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17078
Bogatyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 21:49   #24
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,860
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarague View Post
That should be enough to convince everyone to rephrase all the 'you have to's into 'I would recommend's.
I think it is a nice sign of the flexibility of angband that a rogue mage can be made to work although a lot of people seem to believe it to be inferior to a high speed mage.
Well said. My take on this is
  • It's nice to see different playstyles
  • It's just possible that a different method might actually be viable
  • If no different method *is* viable, we should think whether that's a problem
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 22:00   #25
LostTemplar
Knight
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 670
LostTemplar is on a distinguished road
Speed is too easy to get and too powerfull in Angband, completely scrapping anything else. However it is possible and fun to play with low speed character for a while. In the last fight at least 20 peramanent speed is needed for comfortable win.
LostTemplar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 22:19   #26
Bogatyr
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 448
Bogatyr is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Well said. My take on this is
  • It's nice to see different playstyles
  • It's just possible that a different method might actually be viable
  • If no different method *is* viable, we should think whether that's a problem
I really like and prefer my method until ESP, 0% teleport other, and enough speed is achieved so that nothing can get a double move on you (so that the teleport other is "safe" -- it's still nervous if it's a big baddy though).
Bogatyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 22:44   #27
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,367
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Well said. My take on this is
  • It's nice to see different playstyles
  • It's just possible that a different method might actually be viable
  • If no different method *is* viable, we should think whether that's a problem
No other method is almost guaranteed to get a win (post clvl-35-or-so)[*], so I think it might be a problem. A Post-restructure one, of course.


[*] ... or so says the collective. It might be wrong, but given how much Angband has been run, I doubt there are many other viable options.

Last edited by AnonymousHero; December 23, 2014 at 22:50.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 22:49   #28
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,938
Derakon is on a distinguished road
The big difficulty with "alternate playstyles" is that you need to kill things to win. Even the Sniper challenge has to kill Sauron and Morgoth. So while we could have multiple paths for the player to follow en route to those last two fights, ultimately it's most straightforward for players to do what they'll be doing to Sauron and Morgoth, viz. kill things. Especially since by far the most readily-accessible source of experience is from killing things.

I'm not saying these are unsolvable problems, but they are problems in the current design that keep alternate approaches from being as viable as the current groupthink.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 22:52   #29
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,860
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousHero View Post
No other method is almost guaranteed to get a win (post clvl-35-or-so), so I think it might be a problem. A Post-restructure, one of course.
Note that I'm not saying there is a problem

It's interesting to think about how one might shift emphasis, though. The way HP and SP scale with stats is one obvious one to think about. The speed system is IMHO rather good; I'd suggest that any change that de-emphasised speed would be best done via the monster list, so would probably happen gradually.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2014, 23:07   #30
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,367
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Note that I'm not saying there is a problem

It's interesting to think about how one might shift emphasis, though. The way HP and SP scale with stats is one obvious one to think about. The speed system is IMHO rather good; I'd suggest that any change that de-emphasised speed would be best done via the monster list, so would probably happen gradually.
Nono, I didn't just take your last bullet-point and repeat it

I agree about stat scaling, I think, and I'm usually playing with fizzix's "smoothed out" HP curve as a consequence. Increasing returns usually works best for attack spells (to encourage specialization rather than being a jack-of-all-trades who is effectively as good as a specialist), but it doesn't work nearly as well as a defensive trait in current Angband. (If we're talking specialization in defense then that could be made to work, but it would need something above "can reliably avoid death" since all decent characters can do that in the current conception of Angband). I think this was established pretty well by the game-that-must-not-be-mentioned. (Alright, it was D2, for me at least.)

One really interesting speed-related experiment I'd love to see is a little bit of energy randomization in the style of Entroband. It was a great breath of fresh air -- contrary to randomizing the speed of individual monsters (deterministically, per monster) it meant that there were quite a few situations where you couldn't really be sure, but on average you could prevail/flee/whatever.

EDIT: D2 post 1.12 or whenever it was that they introduced monster immunities as a "penalty" for over-specialization.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
v.important: who named cantoras debo Vanilla 2 June 26, 2014 01:40
Opinion: speed is too important (and some ideas for changing that) Therem Harth Vanilla 8 June 23, 2011 03:07
Really Want To Fight Ancestors tuppe666 Vanilla 26 February 18, 2011 22:28
Most anticlimactic fight ever Ycombinator AAR 11 September 8, 2010 11:36
How important is rConf? Sirridan Vanilla 10 September 24, 2009 00:11


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 21:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.