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Old October 17, 2010, 21:39   #101
camlost
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
Ah, interesting! So both holy spellcasters are biased towards martial arts.

Still, I would like to play sword-wielding rangers, too. I'm pro-choice. A large portion of holy spellcasters are going to be elves now. I'd like to see more variety among those characters.
I have plans to add Ents, at the very least. I have no idea which weapon skills they'd be good with (though there's probably a racial anti-preference for polearms). I would guess that martial arts is also their thing.

Perhaps elves should be less good with karate? Or perhaps weapon penalties should extend to martial arts? Or perhaps it's truly time to upgrade blunt weapons to be as good as sharp weapons and remove the priestly penalties. It's not like there are ancilliary benefits to priests over mages anymore (better hp, combat abilities, etc.).

I have to ask before I axe a race -- Gnomes aren't exactly true to the source, and dark-elves fill a fairly similar niche. Are gnomes necessary?
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Old October 17, 2010, 21:41   #102
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
But I'm beginning to see a wider problem here. At the moment the non-human races that are most suitable for priests or druids are elf, hobbit, half-troll and half-orc. All but half-orcs have bludgeoning weapons or martial arts as their best melee skills. That's not good for game balance. Too often priests get to use their best melee skills with reduced penalties.
Also as a possibility is being more generous with mana and/or failure rate to low stat casters. That's the primary reason I have trouble with low-spellcasting-stat races. It's just so hard to have a reasonable amount of mana to use it effectively. That would help broaden the race/magic combos and alleviate the problem in a different way.
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Old October 17, 2010, 21:45   #103
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- I stopped taking quests for a while, because they slow me down, lower my score, and force me to spend time on boring, shallow levels. The game shouldn't reward slow descending. Maybe quests should have a minimum dungeon level based on player power?
The hardness (depth of monsters) of the quests comes in part (potentially) from the character power, but the depth does not. I increased the depth increase for quests (was 2-3) to 2-5 to slow down the rate of quests, as I have perceived the problem also. I think incorporating the character power in quest depth also makes a lot of sense. It'll act as an automatic relief valve for character power. Thanks!
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Old October 17, 2010, 22:10   #104
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
the biggest old ones are fixed
Does that mean that the restarting a character bug is gone?
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Old October 17, 2010, 22:40   #105
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Originally Posted by camlost View Post
Perhaps elves should be less good with karate? Or perhaps weapon penalties should extend to martial arts? Or perhaps it's truly time to upgrade blunt weapons to be as good as sharp weapons and remove the priestly penalties. It's not like there are ancilliary benefits to priests over mages anymore (better hp, combat abilities, etc.)
How about this for elves: karate 9, sword 10, polearm 11, hafted 12.

As Bostock said, both priests and druids have lots of spells that help in battle. So it makes sense to give high-wisdom races many viable options for combat skills. (Dwarven clerics and rangers had many viable combat skills.)

I'm not against removing priestly penalties.

In their place, you could have something more flavourful. Like a talent Honour that you get by raising Piety. If you activate the talent, you get combat bonuses for as long as you fight honourfully. But if you attack a fleeing opponent, you get some severe penalties.

If you are honour-bound while holding a holy weapon, the weapon gets some extra abilities. And if you attack a fleeing opponent with a Holy weapon, you call the wrath of God on you...

Blunt weapons could have a bigger chance of being Holy.

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I have to ask before I axe a race -- Gnomes aren't exactly true to the source, and dark-elves fill a fairly similar niche. Are gnomes necessary?
I've never liked gnomes.

Also, are giants necessary anymore? They used to be important, because there weren't any other tough and strong races that didn't have penalties for intelligence. Nowadays dwarves fill this niche.
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Old October 17, 2010, 22:41   #106
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Does that mean that the restarting a character bug is gone?
Yeah!
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Old October 17, 2010, 22:48   #107
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If you are honour-bound while holding a holy weapon, the weapon gets some extra abilities. And if you attack a fleeing opponent with a Holy weapon, you call the wrath of God on you...
If you don't like the talent, you could implement this as an ego item. Or as a curse on an ego item.
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Old October 17, 2010, 22:53   #108
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Also as a possibility is being more generous with mana and/or failure rate to low stat casters. That's the primary reason I have trouble with low-spellcasting-stat races. It's just so hard to have a reasonable amount of mana to use it effectively. That would help broaden the race/magic combos and alleviate the problem in a different way.
I like this.
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Old October 17, 2010, 23:11   #109
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Unarmed combat skills are far too cheap at the moment. At the moment all races except dark elves have the cheaper martial arts skill at 10 or less, often at 8 or even less. In comparison, three races have the cheapest melee weapon skill at 11 or 12.

This is even more problematic because there's not much replayability in martial arts. Angband has tons of ego and artifact weapons, and martial artists are missing most of the fun.

Most characters should use melee weapons. Karatekas and wrestlers should be a minority.

I'd like to make throwing a bit cheaper, too. Perhaps lower the price for elves and dark elves by one. Just look at all the work Leon has done to make throwing interesting: you can throw axes, mushrooms, potions, vials of essence, even necromancer spellbooks! This skill has tons of replayability.
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Old October 18, 2010, 08:44   #110
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I feel a bit spammy/thread-dominating, I hope I'm not bothering people...

Mikko - now I see your point, and I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by camlost View Post
I have plans to add Ents, at the very least. I have no idea which weapon skills they'd be good with (though there's probably a racial anti-preference for polearms). I would guess that martial arts is also their thing.
While you're at it, you could create a more elegant paradigm for shapechanging into what is completely (Ents) or somewhat (Half-Trolls) your own race (currently Half-Trolls get full benefit for trollform). :-)

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Perhaps elves should be less good with karate?
If unarmed Ents join the roster, sword-happy, unarmed-poor Elves would certainly make a better complement. I think they'd be more canon too.

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Or perhaps weapon penalties should extend to martial arts?
I don't think that penalizing them fits the priestly-weapons trope too much... but I guess I can see it.

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Or perhaps it's truly time to upgrade blunt weapons to be as good as sharp weapons and remove the priestly penalties. It's not like there are ancilliary benefits to priests over mages anymore (better hp, combat abilities, etc.).
Oh! I didn't know that! In that case sure, why not?

Don't forget, however, that sharp weapons have one little-discussed penalty: monsters resistant to them come far earlier than other weapon-resistant monsters.

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I have to ask before I axe a race -- Gnomes aren't exactly true to the source, and dark-elves fill a fairly similar niche. Are gnomes necessary?
Sex is necessary. Gnomes aren't necessary. It would be nice to have someone replace them as the device kings, though.

(It would be nice to hear a comment -- even a "no" -- on my townspeople thoughts from a while back... I really don't think run-stopping, ranged-aggroavable, melee-unaggroavable townspeople add to the game.)
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