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Old November 4, 2010, 08:14   #51
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by ewert View Post
Well how about that, imagine that some of us like to play a class that is a mixture of two or more base classes ... You like specialized classes okay we/I get it, I like also multitalented and more spread out classes ... The hybrids, whether multiclassed or their own multifaceted own classes have been a staple of rpg's near forever. Repeating this again and again, but for me and probably many others, the rogue is a nice warrior/mage with some minor unique perks.
I'm still wondering what are those unique perks. It's just boring. But fine, don't do anything to it.

In fact that attitude explains a bit about why people are trying to ruin Rangers. They are trying to make them as boring as rogues are by making it "balanced" IE. grey mass without any special abilities by weakening the only specialty it has above all others.

Lets give 5% failure from spellcasters while we are at it and give them five blows. And why not give warriors some spells too and remove that one extra blow. Lets level up hit-dies too. That way you have six classes to choose without any specialty with "minor unique perks". That must be improvement.
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Old November 4, 2010, 08:16   #52
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However, stealth is an exponential effectiveness stat, not a linear one, so a single point of difference is significant, and two points difference is a big one. Only until you get to ridiculous stealth values (which are so much easier with kobold rogues for example with a few items) will the return of investment start to get so small, that the extra +2 stealth or so is not so necessary anymore.
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Old November 4, 2010, 08:31   #53
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by ewert View Post
However, stealth is an exponential effectiveness stat, not a linear one, so a single point of difference is significant, and two points difference is a big one. Only until you get to ridiculous stealth values (which are so much easier with kobold rogues for example with a few items) will the return of investment start to get so small, that the extra +2 stealth or so is not so necessary anymore.
After you have around +7 stealth more doesn't matter much. Those that I mentioned are very close to that. You need one item to get hi-elf over that, which means cloak/boots of stealth or elvenkind armor, hobbit is already there without any boosting.

I currently have half-orc warrior with two items giving it stealth and it is in excellent. That's more than enough stealth for survival. I actually carry one item with aggravation to wake things up when I want them to wake up. Of course if you don't know how to play no amount of stealth is going to help you.
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Old November 4, 2010, 08:46   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
After you have around +7 stealth more doesn't matter much. Those that I mentioned are very close to that. You need one item to get hi-elf over that, which means cloak/boots of stealth or elvenkind armor, hobbit is already there without any boosting.

I currently have half-orc warrior with two items giving it stealth and it is in excellent. That's more than enough stealth for survival. I actually carry one item with aggravation to wake things up when I want them to wake up. Of course if you don't know how to play no amount of stealth is going to help you.
I was using a little bit of poetic licence - I'm not quite that bad. Yes I have played both hobbit rangers and high-elf rangers, precisely for the combination of good stealth and better shooting than rogues, and yes they are great. My only win was a ranger, not a rogue.

It is true that the current setup in V means that items can completely make up for any lack of intrinsic race and class stealth. But the RNG teases, of course - I once found an elven cloak with +5 stealth (+3 from ego property, +2 from base item property) but I was a high-elf rogue so didn't really need it. The RNG would never give me that with a dwarf.

If we introduce rings of stealth, as discussed recently, that might make me have another try with warriors and paladins.
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Old November 4, 2010, 14:08   #55
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It is true that the current setup in V means that items can completely make up for any lack of intrinsic race and class stealth. But the RNG teases, of course - I once found an elven cloak with +5 stealth (+3 from ego property, +2 from base item property) but I was a high-elf rogue so didn't really need it. The RNG would never give me that with a dwarf.
My two items are Aman Elvenkind cloak (+5) (shards IIRC) and Barahir. Have been using that Barahir for some time now hoping for better ring.

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If we introduce rings of stealth, as discussed recently, that might make me have another try with warriors and paladins.
I think we should make stealth increase with level like most other skills do. Make warrior bad at start, but very stealthy at the end (stealth if something is a combat skill).
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Old November 4, 2010, 14:19   #56
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I think we should make stealth increase with level like most other skills do. Make warrior bad at start, but very stealthy at the end (stealth if something is a combat skill).
I like this idea, though making the warrior more stealthy would, er, make it less different from the rogue.
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Old November 4, 2010, 16:39   #57
Timo Pietilš
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I like this idea, though making the warrior more stealthy would, er, make it less different from the rogue.
Warrior doesn't have spells, rogue does. That affects inventory space, device usage, boosts, detection methods, escapes...pretty much most things. I think warrior is the most unique class in entire angband, giving them some more stealth affects that so little that it practically doesn't affect it at all.

Ranger is already pretty close to rogue, and IMO ranger should have higher stealth than rogue, while rogue should be much better than ranger in combat with spells to match that. Ranger doesn't need the combat spells. Remove them and then Rogue suddenly becomes something else than weaker version of Ranger.
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Old November 4, 2010, 18:11   #58
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
I'm still wondering what are those unique perks. It's just boring. But fine, don't do anything to it.

In fact that attitude explains a bit about why people are trying to ruin Rangers. They are trying to make them as boring as rogues are by making it "balanced" IE. grey mass without any special abilities by weakening the only specialty it has above all others.

Lets give 5% failure from spellcasters while we are at it and give them five blows. And why not give warriors some spells too and remove that one extra blow. Lets level up hit-dies too. That way you have six classes to choose without any specialty with "minor unique perks". That must be improvement.
Missed this, but anyways no need to go full speed ahead with strawmen or red ad absurdum ...

For me, rogues have: best stealth (minor perk), best detection (arguably with detect treasures early on, perk). They do share the "nonunique" hybridclass melee ability, and while not exceptional they are neither sucky at ranged combat. Most importantly for me, the lack of archery superpower like rangers makes them more alluring, since I don't like to play stuff with clearly overpowering abilities (yes yes, matter of opinion, but I have said for a long time +shots needs to be changed to +might, or +shots changed to a lesser energy cost reduction than -50%/-66%/-75% etc.).

But I'll remove rangers soon anyways from iVanilla, so I don't have a problem with them soon!
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