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Old November 26, 2010, 19:49   #21
PowerDiver
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How much of this comes down to abuse of asymmetric LOS? If every hound you could see to shoot could see you to breathe back, would it even be a significant problem?
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Old November 26, 2010, 21:32   #22
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
How much of this comes down to abuse of asymmetric LOS? If every hound you could see to shoot could see you to breathe back, would it even be a significant problem?
You'd have to make it so that they were smart enough to breathe on the square next to you. Making LOS symmetric would help, but you still need to deal with ball spells. d_m's solution seems both simple and elegant enough.
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Old November 27, 2010, 02:14   #23
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
You'd have to make it so that they were smart enough to breathe on the square next to you. Making LOS symmetric would help, but you still need to deal with ball spells.
NPP has both of these. It wasn't easy to code, but all of the bugs have been worked out.
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Old November 27, 2010, 04:56   #24
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Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
NPP has both of these. It wasn't easy to code, but all of the bugs have been worked out.
what about this situation?

Code:
###############
##########Z....
##########.....
@..............
##########.....
##########Z....
###############
@ can kill the Z's but they can't hurt @. Does NPP do something clever here? If so, that is what we should poach.
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Old November 27, 2010, 07:19   #25
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Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
NPP has both of these. It wasn't easy to code, but all of the bugs have been worked out.
You allow monsters to use ball spells to do splash damage to '@'? I added that, but I'd be interested to see a more robust solution; mine doesn't work all that well with monsters that don't know where the player is precisely.
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Old November 27, 2010, 09:11   #26
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
How much of this comes down to abuse of asymmetric LOS? If every hound you could see to shoot could see you to breathe back, would it even be a significant problem?
It's not so much of asymmetric LoS but difference between targeting and LoS, which allows way worse abuse than just asymmetric LoS. IMO, if you can't see it you should not be able to target it no matter if it is asymmetric or not (asymmetric LoS is fine to me).


###....TTTTTTTTssssss
T=targetable but not in sight
###...TTTTTTsssssssss
s=in sight
###..TTTTssssssssssss
###.TTsssssssssssssss
###ssssssssssssssssss
.@sssssssssssssssssss
#####################


T is where pack monsters move freely because they apparently try to avoid being in LoS, not being targetable.

Even if you fix that targetable vs LoS you can still kill the monsters without with ball spells. That's what's wrong in pack behavior.
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Old November 27, 2010, 10:06   #27
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I noticed a problem with the "is friend hurt" coding approach compared to "I'm hurt guys" coding approach. If you instant kill them, the pack AI never gets turned off and you can still pick them off 1 by 1.
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Old November 27, 2010, 14:57   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
what about this situation?

Code:
###############
##########Z....
##########.....
@..............
##########.....
##########Z....
###############
@ can kill the Z's but they can't hurt @. Does NPP do something clever here? If so, that is what we should poach.
If a monster get's hit by the player, and then the player is out of line of sight when it is the monsters turn to attack (pillar dancing, or the situation above), they are marked with a flag, they notify thier entire pack of the attack, and usually as a group they charge straight at the player, retreat further away, or if they have ball spells, they try to cast it close to the player. The monsters get to cheat a little bit and they always know where the player is (but I think they always have this advantage anyways).

It isn't perfect, but they won't sit there passively until you kill them with out-of-los attacks. Improving the group AI is on my to-do list for NPP 0.7.0.

Also, most importatnly, hockey-stick LOS attacks don't work in NPP (I lifted the projection and LOS codes that Leon Marrick used in Sangband. I think that might currently be the biggest abuse in the game.
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Old November 27, 2010, 15:29   #29
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Originally Posted by ewert View Post
I noticed a problem with the "is friend hurt" coding approach compared to "I'm hurt guys" coding approach. If you instant kill them, the pack AI never gets turned off and you can still pick them off 1 by 1.
how would 'i'm hurt guys' improve on that? It seems like it'd be problematic either way.
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Old November 27, 2010, 15:34   #30
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Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
Also, most importatnly, hockey-stick LOS attacks don't work in NPP (I lifted the projection and LOS codes that Leon Marrick used in Sangband. I think that might currently be the biggest abuse in the game.
I'm happy with asymmetric LoS, because it is asymmetric in both directions. What I don't like is targeting not following the LoS: being subset of LoS. IMO "you can see monsters you can't target" is more natural than other way around.

That's like one of the Mythbusters episode where they shoot around the corner. Without seeing what you are shooting (even that you did know where the target is) you hit anything but the target. If that is the case with pistol, try doing that same with bow. It only gets worse. Sling would be practically impossible. Magic? Well, magic is magic, you can rationalize that in many ways, but I think it should follow the same rule as other distance attacks.
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