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Old May 18, 2013, 16:51   #1
eMeM
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Few ideas fo 50' dungeon level

I think 50' should be a little bit different from other dungeon levels just like 5000' is different.

- no OOD monsters
- no monster packs (jackals), maybe no more than two monsters per room
- no traps
- no good/egos/special/OOD items or maybe no items at all
- all lit or start always in rooms

Why? Currently there are too many things that can lead to insta death of low HP characters (let say we play with disconnected stairs)
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Old May 18, 2013, 17:05   #2
Derakon
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Out of depth monsters on level 1 are very rare already; it practically never happens. Likewise traps; you can completely ignore trap detection for the first six dungeon levels or so because they just don't show up often enough to be relevant.

Are jackals really that dangerous? They have something like 3HP apiece and aren't very aggressive.

I'm also not clear on why you'd want to enforce there never being anything good on level 1, since, again, the odds are stacked against it to begin with. If someone really wants to scum level 1 for good gear, then they must have an incredible tolerance for tedium.

Bottom line is, I'm not certain your motivation ("let's make sure you can't get instakilled on level 1") is actually a problem.
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Old May 18, 2013, 17:31   #3
Therem Harth
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I'd argue for the exact opposite actually; more monsters especially. You get experience mostly by killing monsters, so more of them means faster leveling, faster diving, and faster gameplay.
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Old May 18, 2013, 19:05   #4
eMeM
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Don't tell me you never met Farmer's dogs on 50'. They are lethal for 7HP character. Sometimes you can find multiple Apprentices or Scouts both with ranged attack or even Smeagol. I have just seen room with two packs of jackals. There is no way hobbit mage could survive their attack.

Also I think there is no reason in the world why 50' should be hard. First trip to the dungeon can and even should be piece of cake without buying stuff from shops. Experienced player will buy ranged weapon (or flask of oil) and trap detection if he wants to be safe but should game force players to do it if they want to be 100% to survive? IMO death should be result of bad play or risky play (diving too fast), not just bad luck. Diving from town to 50' shouldn't be considered as diving to fast as there's no other game choice.

Poison or summoning traps are very dangerous.
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Old May 18, 2013, 19:34   #5
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Not running away = bad play or risky play.

The first Mage I played in 3.3.2, after a Dwarf Priest Winner, promptly got killed by a Yellow Mold - and I believe it was on level 1 of the dungeon.

How did he get killed? My bad judgment since I wanted to kill the damn thing and I wasn't able to pump out damage with spells faster than it regenerated. So, since I didn't have a sling, I tried to melee it.

Bad play, risky play, ignorance, and sometimes, yes, bad luck will get your character killed. That's part of the game design. At least if it happens at the start you haven't invested much time in that character.
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Old May 18, 2013, 19:38   #6
Monkey Face
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I believe the only traps on level 1 are teleport and confusion (although I'm playing 3.3.2, so this may have changed since then). Yes, I suppose either of these traps could be deadly given the right circumstance but usually it is just 5 free experience points for disarming. In a lot of ways it's better to die on level 1 than any other level since you haven't spent a lot of time on the game and it's easy to start a new one with the same stats. Not all that much different from playing a mage, finding the store isn't stocking MB1 and suiciding to start over.
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Old May 18, 2013, 21:49   #7
Zyphyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eMeM View Post
Don't tell me you never met Farmer's dogs on 50'. They are lethal for 7HP character. Sometimes you can find multiple Apprentices or Scouts both with ranged attack or even Smeagol. I have just seen room with two packs of jackals. There is no way hobbit mage could survive their attack.
Grip and Fang? Flasks of Oil.

Multiple Apprentices/Scouts? Since they don't appear as groups until later, rare but it does happen. Try not charging into the room. Use range and terrain.

2 Jackal Packs? Lots of Free XP. Take advantage of the Pack AI. Unless you let yourself get badly mauled, they won't chase you out of the room. Stand at the door, whack one or two, retreat, rest up. Repeat.

Quote:
IMO death should be result of bad play or risky play (diving too fast), not just bad luck.
Failure to properly prepare before entering the dungeon IS bad/risky play.
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Old May 18, 2013, 22:56   #8
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My first ever game of angband, I descended into a dungeon next to a black naga who promptly killed me. So yeah, I can understand the desire not to have, say, Maggot's dogs on level 1. Large groups of mobs won't really exist except for jackals (which aren't that dangerous)

But there's something useful to learn here, which is monsters that are out of depth are dangerous, so be careful. I don't think it's worth restricting them out of that need, although special casing maggot's dogs might be something I'm ok with.
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Old May 19, 2013, 00:24   #9
eMeM
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I'm not asking for help. I know how to play. I won the game many times with all classes. I will repeat, starting chars doesn't have ranged attack (ok mages have 2 SP for Magic Missiles) without going to shop and IMO starting inventory should be enough to survive without going to shop even with worst possible combo like Hobbit Mage (7HP) in worst possible imaginable start position eg. two packs of jackals or room with apprentices, Smeagol, reaven far from stairs or corridor. With bad stealth it's insta death.

In new development version most classes start with dagger which makes even harder to fight hand to hand with stronger monsters.
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Old May 19, 2013, 00:32   #10
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I don't disagree that there are multiple things that can kill the character on level1. I just don't think it's a bad thing
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